The Immoral Mr Teas

IMO, (the only O which matters!), foley stage acoustics matter far more than any other factor in this scenario. Though I am not sure quite how helpful my O is in this case!

Jez

From what you've said I can't object to your choice of the CO-100K : although I've never used one it's been on my 'would like to try' list of mics since it came out. Further 'off grid' recommendations would be a pair of DPA 6060s or 4060s : they are just so useful (and for FX use I recommend the standard microdot termination with DAD XLR adapter and perhaps microdot extension cables. I also like the MKH series for their dependability in adverse conditions (particularly humid) although they're not alone from other choices here.

I would definitely go for the newer series of MixPre if going that route (and be mindful of all IronFilm said). Personally, although the size of the 3 is very nice I think the 4 preamps of the 6 would be better (even now that the series II all do 192 as remarked). When you're onto your SECOND pair of CO-100K and want to record quad atmos in Kashmir with the Kashmir preamps ... (or even just the 'budget' kit of 4 DPA6060s ...)

Everything else that was said I find quite decent. Although if you have regular sound folk I would run over options for a "lo-no basic kit based around your new FX / music package" for value and compatibility ...

Jez

I'd probably keep the F myself ...

Jez

Tyler, hi! Everyone else - I think he made it clear that he wants basic kit to dabble with projects yet still hire his regular folk. On the other hand, Tyler, have you asked your regular folk what they think you should get as basic kit / back up? They are by far going to be the best people to recommend what you could use yourself and what they could use beyond their own package to avoid the uncertainty of external hire.

I took notice that you are thinking of buying two very expensive and specialised Sanken CO-100K. I've never had the opportunity to use this mic but know what it is ... I probably wouldn't bother recording below 192 with these!

But is there any great reason you're looking at this route? I'm a big fan of spaced omni for film atmos myself, and like omnis for many other reasons. But at this level of investment I would be looking at more than two of them probably...! I can see the CO-100K being used for music and very particular effects applications but for a first fx pair? For that money surely you could buy a new pair of more generally useful MKH8040 cardioids and a new pair of DPA 6060s (all of which would have extra life as top quality spares for main shoots...)

I would need to know precisely what you're planning to record fx wise before either criticising your choice or recommending an alternative. You have set the bar high for a first purchase ...

Jez

If money is no problem just go ahead and get a pair of DPA (Danish Pro Audio - although they're known generally as DPA) omni lavaliers model 4060 - or if you prefer go for the tinier 6060 new model. Many of us have used 4060s as first choice general car ambience mics for many years. There are lower sensitivity / higher 'max SPL' (can take louder sounds) models which are often used for recording more 'car' (especially muscle cars) against ambience - ie located by exhausts, engines etc ... the 4061 is the next model (up or down so to speak). The least sensitive / highest SPL model is the 4062 which is commonly used by those recording Formula One cars etc. For ambience go for the 4060 ... it is more suited to the medium sound levels around the car and is unlikely to overload, although the 4061 for such a purpose wouldn't be out of place either.

The main thing is placement and this will take a fair bit of experimentation (even more so for a non recordist). First try packing the mics in a largish mic foam windshield, much larger than the mic itself - up to 'tennis ball' if possible. Put that in a nylon sock. Try behind the wing mirrors. Try on the roof ... try left right roof aerials. If there's too much wind you might have to go for fur windshielding. Although mini fur windshielding (DPA's own or Rycote or Bubblebee) may well work fine (or better). It all depends on conditions. So go ahead and search for past discussions - there is more out there (and here). (Although much is focused on specifics like close miking and particular sounds there will be ideas there for ambient setups).

Good luck,

Jez

Hi I, for me driving is a lot about listening as I rely upon my ears as much as my eyes to drive (I live in lockdown perhaps half a mile away from Domenic Cummings' parents if that means anything to anyone?! ... about as far again as the Care Home once a BBC building where Kate Adie started her career)... So yeah, I would appreciate the sound of the ambience myself although you seem to be more after the street sound than the car ... so ...

It depends somewhat on what you have or want to spend (and what the rest of the equipment is) as to recommendations for actual mics. I would suggest a pair of (omni) lavaliers, packed in foam, for a stereo image. Attached to both wing mirror (or just behind, for some extra wind protection) will give a decent 'car / ambience' ratio. But to get more ambience from car sound try going to the roof. If that is still too much 'car' you could try mounting on aerials (or an aerial type contraption on the roof).

The (little I watched of the) video you posted was highly edited / mixed however ... in an ambient fashion. So if you're after that actual sound you will also have to 'do stuff in post' as we say. Although I recommend experimenting a little with a couple of lavalier mics to come up with something you like yourself. You can always switch between positions depending on mood and mix music in if that works better occasionally.

If you're interested in specifics of recording vehicles (rather than the ambience of driving) it has been discussed here many times and there is much to be gained from a search. Ambience, however, is 'distant' from the vehicle, either attached and slightly distant or totally separate (and perhaps creatively constructed).

Hope this helps

Oddly enough I was just thinking today how I was one of the last rats to jump the good ship RAMPS and belly float to JWS. I do hope, Jeff, that you do keep JWS going as cart one and it doesn't become dissipated in any way - I actually like being able to jump in and out and check topics which might be of interest. I have no idea how facebook works! Indeed - in these pubs-r-closed times I'm trying to keep my lithium footprint minimal and spend more time painting, listening and recording. And I realise catching up on your back catalogue Jeff - watched The Natural for the first time the other night, after realising it was Barry Levinson (and a few from the Hill St Blues company!) then Almost Famous a couple of days later ... so I might well be a binge watcher (listener) of Jeff for this pandemic!

So what am I saying? Keep the old boat afloat but push the dinghy out and good luck!

Cheers, Jez

5 hours ago, julian said:

...

Yea, I figured there will be a small loss of quality because of the diaphragm size. 

Having used DPA (and Bruel & Kjaer) for a number of years I would trust their own published specs on output level, noise floor, max SPL etc. Can't see how or why a smaller diaphragm (developed after several years by the people who made the larger diaphragm model) should be lower in 'quality' tho' maybe the specs are slightly different. Sorry haven't used the 6060 yet but having lost both my B6 and one of my 4060 quad set over the last couple or so years a pair of 6060s is on my 'sometime soon' list to replace (augment what's left) a mini quad ambience and a mini underwater fx set.

The 4060s may not be the 'best' omni ambience mics out there but they were certainly one of the most useful. I haven't looked too closely into it but the usefulness is at least extended with the waterproof capability of the 6060 so a couple of them are certainly my intention so far.

Jez

Not in a hurry to shit upon our community and quality support from our dearly held manufacturers, but I'm sure I've come across £10 (and thus prob $10) foot long short booms on eBay from your favourite Shenzhen dealer ... Likely a 1/4" camera screw so you might need an adapter but even then I'm not sure it wasn't 3/8 ... Quite surprised anyone (manufacturer or punter) would consider a quality mega short pole to be worth the inevitable high cost so surprised by the vdb model! Quite taken with the Rode micro boompole pro myself for lightweight travel but it is 3 (+) sections with each being perhaps two or so foot in length.

Jez

Curious here - not being a wireless user - would putting the five receivers more diagonal from where they are help the diversity physics? Looks like there's room to put them upright yet twist them a bit.

Jez

OK, nice!

J

No, keep it here! I'm sure Ty is happy with it.

Was not "miking a snare" already a wander?

OK, fair nuff, guess I'm too late!

Jez

I kind of dared too several years back - 8040s in my case. Crashing whilst in HK at my friend's who played lead guitar for Jacky Cheung: asked to record a jam session knowing I had some field recording gear with me ended up using 8040s on toms or snare after the drummer - a merchant banker in day job - asked how much they cost and said,

"If I hit them I'll just replace them ... "

 Couldn't argue with that and unfortunately he didn't have to buy me any new ones ... Second richest drummer I ever worked with and the absolutely least well known: decent enough though!

4 hours ago, Rick Reineke said:

...  great for unpredictable levels or someone not monitoring levels closely.....

If you are not / not able to monitor or attend recording properly I second Rick's two suggestions here: both seem to be budgeted in your area, the more expensive SD option(s) perhaps being a little more flexible and useful overall but the Zoom looking to be a sturdy and classy little machine (as Rick says head and shoulders above the H series). Definitely worth looking at the 32bit recorders to see if indeed this feature is useful for your overall needs.

Jez

15 hours ago, daniel said:

This would be good - i've been reading with a bit of intrigue. I thought Paul F's suggestion of several mics worth a go - maybe as a spaced stereo pair just to cover the field of the lab. Since the OP now has an 8050 maybe 1 of these methods can supplement the other. The other thing I thought was to maybe put the 8050 on an overhead angle-poise mic arm - a bit like a radio station but out of picture. This would allow the lab techs (or whoever is front of camera) to very easily reposition the mic as they moved around and remain as 'on mic' as possible.

Or a gorilla pod

(watch the LF but may not be a problem especially if in a suspension)

though a sturdier and larger angle poise out of shot would be better

Jez

Great in every way Al ! 

But I dare not click on any of the links ...

Fairly certain now it is the sled, although the sled was working fine a couple of days before. The last (or first- whichever way you look at it) battery contact seemed loose although I'm still dubious how I can test it since the whole thing is encased and ends in a 4 pin plug ... Any help from Zoom Official as to the wiring scheme of the battery pack would be most welcome! (I wouldn't want to guess and end up blowing up the innards of the actual machine)!!!

It does look however that it is 8 batteries in series and thus 2 poles BUT there are clearly four poles on the connector which have metal and thus connection there - why???

If anyone here happens to have an F8 or F4 they could do me a favour: please load the battery sled with batteries EXCEPT for the first and last batteries (those two closest to the connector which will be in the middle of the machine). If you shake it DOES IT RATTLE? I'm hoping not and I need a new sled, but I'd like to know in advance, partly because the bit of cheap plastic costs quite a bit and partly because in the uk at least it seems to be a "we need to order this" item which in present times ...! It's the first time I've handled an F8 and was far more impressed by its build quality than I expected - only the sled inside was of far inferior quality: cheap thin plastic, connector box on the back not quite aligned correctly ... and ours now rattling ... clearly a weak point I didn't expect in an otherwise surprisingly well manufactured unit.

Thanks if anyone can help - pin breakout or whether it should rattle - cheers!

Jez

Hi Iron, the batteries were brand new, but no I didn't have a tester handy. Same result with the 8 part-used ones from my SQN though: the battery graphic on the power options window (when powered up by mains) empty inside. I'm assuming the sled is broken (which could maybe be fixed or replaced) or internally the hardware (ie back to the factory). But I hold out some hope it's a software bug ... or did til it didn't seem to be a known issue out there.

cheers, J

Could easily be the sledge, but couldn't test at the studio today, nor the batteries - will take a tester in tomorrow. Curious (and in a funny way hopeful) that it could be software. Sledge has a 4 point output - which to me means zilch! It could be anything. Obviously nothing like this is covered in the manual for consumer gear.

Cheers tho! 

Sadly - annoyingly - when AudioMedia changed hands (the first time) the fairly new digital archive of the previous publishers efforts just stopped working! If you hadn't downloaded what you wanted when it was owned by A you couldn't when B rebranded.

One important result is that I cannot share a link to eg the odd interesting article like how David Lewiston recorded gamelan with EV50s when the KM74s overloaded ...

I'm not a fan of sitting digitising anything without a pay packet to encourage it but I guess in several years if we still have some form of digital technology I might be the old man uploading Alarums & Excursions ...

Thanks again Al for that issue!

Jez

Hi all, tried without luck to look for an answer in archive - just too much up there!

I have come across an F8, running v2, that just doesn't power up from alkaline batteries. All is fine from the 12v mains adaptor. (Haven't been able to test from the hirose in). Looking at the power settings, when running from mains, the AA battery graphic registers as empty (ie not connected). I expect this is a hardware powering problem but wondered if it might be a software glitch or if anyone has experienced similar? Haven't (yet) tried rebooting nor installing current software. Half expect sadly that it has been running happily via hirose for years and the problem hasn't been noticed. But I'm still quietly hoping that it may be software and someone here might know something to get it up and working tomorrow!

Cheers all, Jez

2 hours ago, Patrick Farrell said:

 

The 416 also uses the tube with consecutive holes of varying diameter. I boomed for a mixer once that claimed the slots on the 416 mattered which way they pointed but I could never hear a difference.

I tried to open up my CMIT to see what it uses but the interference tube is fully enclosed with the capsule. A flashlight didn't reveal any of the holes behind the slots like on a 416 though.

Patrick, thanks for the heroic investigation! I-tubes have obviously got more slotty over the decades but have we been duped?!? Even all my 1970s/1980s early learning literature on the theory of I-tubes (possibly all BBC but maybe Europe/USA too) to my memory seemed to talk of slots rather than holes (and I recall no mention at all of the widening of the holes at the bell).

If any manufacturers of I-tube mics are listening could they butt in and explain what the hidden changes have been since the 1960s? Especially Schoeps for the first CMIT since you failed Patrick!! As an aside, Al's recently posted 1978 December magazine in 'general' has some mention in the later pages of the newly released Neumann KMR 81 (I think) talking of similar "why we looked at IT mics" issues back then.

What's inside yr mics folks?!?

Cheers Patrick, Jez

Yep cheers Al, I'll enjoy this

J

I took apart one of the early interference tube classics several years ago - the Sennheiser 805 - and was surprised to find that beneath the meticulously machined upper slots of the outer casing was an inner tube with small round holes (albeit also meticulously positioned and varying in diameter at the 'horn' so to speak). So I had a second physics lesson. I wonder what the massive Electrovoice looked like up close or indeed inside?

But the point is that in such a 'simple' (or at least early) design pointing the slots (actually holes) upwards tended the 'unwanted' ambient sound (to be cancelled by the interference tube) to be the more random outdoor noises from the air rather than the stuff bouncing from below. One might assume that the sound from either side might be the stuff we really want the interference tube to prioritise in general use but whilst the outside appearance of IT mics has certainly become more slotty over the decades I've never dared taking another one apart. (Said 805 stopped working shortly after my investigation)!

All told, I'm not sure what benefit exactly a rotationally symmetrical polar pattern has in a shotgun, but they apparently achieved it so good on them! I'm happy to report that my Schoeps omni boasts a rotationally symmetrical polar pattern whilst my Schoeps figure of eight does not!

Jez

All the standard (axial address) capsules like the MK41 have a naturally occurring 'rotationally symmetrical polar pattern' without Schoeps having to do anything to achieve it. The designers of the interference tube of the CMIT however probably put a lot of work into the rotationally symmetrical polar pattern for that mic, however, so felt justified in advertising the "rotationally symmetrical polar pattern" of their endeavours! As such I would expect them to say,

" You can position the logo however you like - we have engineered a rotationally symmetrical polar pattern into the CMIT"!

But it's probably easier to get to the switches if they are on the top.

Seriously though, when interference tubes were first developed, the holes being along the top had an effect on its 'rotational symmetry'. It's a new term for me (in advertising, not in understanding it's meaning) but they're just making a point that they took this aspect of the design for their very late entries to the interference tube canon seriously.

Jez