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Newbie location sound setup?


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Newbie in the house question and need help

I need to setup for a location shoot which take place mostly inside a house for 3 weeks. Budget is low (of course) so I am thinking about computer recording so I can mix and have ISO tracks on file. Thinking using Soundcraft M8 mixer with my 003 racks with additional to all my wireless and one boom man. The boom man has his own 2 track SD system on the bag so I am not worry about him. Have any of you have this setup before and can you give me some opinions?

Real cool Director and DOP, actually give me a nice space in the house for me to setup and time to do so.

thank you,

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I think Pro Tools is not always suitable for location sound, due to lack of portability, lack of support for metadata, difficulty for DC operation, and the necessity for a cart. I've also found that it doesn't have a lot of protection in the event of crashes. I have used Pro Tools for concerts and live stand-up comedy situations, but that was a lockdown situation (and I would've preferred to use a standalone recorder like a Deva or Sound Devices).

I think Boom Recorder and Metacorder are better options, because they're designed from the ground up to actually work for production sound. You'll still have the problem of being tied to a cart, but for certain situations, they can work.

A true portable recorder, even a low-end Fostex, is going to be necessary if you're moving down a sidewalk, walking outside, traveling in a car, or any number of highly-mobile situations. Wireless mikes can only go so far.

BTW, don't forget the need for a rock-solid, referenced timecode source. And be sure to do a workflow test to make sure the audio recording will sync up with a (lengthy) video take.

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I think Pro Tools is not always suitable for location sound, due to lack of portability, lack of support for metadata, difficulty for DC operation, and the necessity for a cart. I've also found that it doesn't have a lot of protection in the event of crashes. I have used Pro Tools for concerts and live stand-up comedy situations, but that was a lockdown situation (and I would've preferred to use a standalone recorder like a Deva or Sound Devices).

I think Boom Recorder and Metacorder are better options, because they're designed from the ground up to actually work for production sound. You'll still have the problem of being tied to a cart, but for certain situations, they can work.

A true portable recorder, even a low-end Fostex, is going to be necessary if you're moving down a sidewalk, walking outside, traveling in a car, or any number of highly-mobile situations. Wireless mikes can only go so far.

BTW, don't forget the need for a rock-solid, referenced timecode source. And be sure to do a workflow test to make sure the audio recording will sync up with a (lengthy) video take.

...and a solid time-base....(clock)

phil p

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Thank you,

I was thinking, maybe Metacorder and different interface altogether. I Soundcraft mixer is ok for now because I need direct out and I/o;s. Low budget so I can't get SD or Deva gears and the timecode sync issue, we going back to basic slate. Actually it is a live recording of a comedy play in a room.

Any suggestion for a good computer interface for Boom Recorder and Metacorder? Thanks

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Please file these items and tasks in the back of your mind; you will need them when you shoot. Turn off noise-makers(refridgerators, computer fans, etc.) in the house. If the floors have no carpeting, do what you can to bring carpet mats or something for footsteps/sound suppression. Keep lighting ballasts or any gear that makes noise as far away as possible. Comedy means Overlapping Dialogue and Ad Libs, so try to get more money for your boom operator because he will be working hard to get what is being said while you are busy assigning radio mics to actors for your isos. Remember the phrases, "Yes, the mic needs to be there, we need to hear the actors." and "Wait, I need time please--you got your time I need mine." Once you get your equipment up and smoothly running, you'll want to address some of these issues. Just because your project is Low Budget, it doesn't mean your sound should be.

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If you want a combined mixer and firewire interface (assuming Mac laptop), both the Yamaha 01X and the Mackie 1620/1640 mixers will work fine. I've used them both with Metacorder and they've been champs. I made the decision to feed timecode to the computer's analog input, because the mixers had too much bleed for me.

The Motu Traveler is a better choice if you want to go all-DC, since it will work from 12 volts. All of these devices are available reasonably cheap on eBay. Be sure to thoroughly test this stuff, particularly a few trial shots for workflow from start to finish (clap at head and tails to verify no sync drift over 3-4 minutes). I would also plan to record on two drives at once, with one as a backup. I did this with no problem on Metacorder -- internal and external drives -- and I made sure the drives were small and super-quiet.

I would discuss with the editor the need for clean coverage, particularly on overlapping dialog issues. This can be a nightmare to deal with in editing.

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0196vi is an interface and a great mixer. It gives you digital direct outs of every channel over USB and a mixer, timecode can be fed into it or any other input. Use boom recorder as metacorder is no longer updated.

Its best to have a word clock lock between where you input the time code device and your audio inputs. Jitter between clocks can cause skips in timecode, which will self correct but can cause small issues.

Computers overcomplicate location sound. thats why sound devices and zaxcom put their computers in a box with knobs on it so sound mixers dont get confused....

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks Marc, the Motu Traveler is nice but that an additional piece of gears. I am thinking of the Mackie 1220 which has direct out put per channel via DB25 and firewire card. small enough of a mixer with enough inputs for lav and boom.

I don't have enough experience with Time Code input but can you explain how to achieve Time Code input via analog track? Newbie.

thanks

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0196vi is an interface and a great mixer. It gives you digital direct outs of every channel over USB and a mixer, timecode can be fed into it or any other input. Use boom recorder as metacorder is no longer updated.

Its best to have a word clock lock between where you input the time code device and your audio inputs. Jitter between clocks can cause skips in timecode, which will self correct but can cause small issues.

Computers overcomplicate location sound. thats why sound devices and zaxcom put their computers in a box with knobs on it so sound mixers dont get confused....

what is there to update? If you have questions, Email them and they will answer whatever you need them to. Gallery has excellent customer service.

Also, the person behind metacorder is the person that came up with the ixml standard. All the metadata stuff is spot on.

It hasn't been updated because it doesn't need to be updated.

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+1 for Metacorder... it's not the cheapest, but it's rock solid in my experience. I've contemplated replacing my Metacorder system with something smaller (ie: 788T, etc) but the feature set Metacorder offers is hard to beat, and I think I'd miss it terribly if I didn't have it. just my $.02...

~tt

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How's about an FP33 and a DEVA II. That was my first setup and sometimes I wish I'd've hung onto it. You can get both used for pretty decent prices.

At one point I was going to go computer based but find that portability is key to 99% of the work I do. As a "newbie" you probably won't be sitting at a nice cart on a sound stage. If you do any car work a computer based system is out the window.

Trew has both of these items on its consignment page.

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Jeff brings up a valuable point -- you have to consider the type of work you'll likely be doing... My main cart is designed in such a way so I can detach the bag (with SD recorder, mixer, Lectro rx's) and go portable if need be, and though I use the cart(s) for a lot more than just stage work, there are definitely places that aren't very cart-friendly. Another thing to consider is price... I've invested close to $150k in gear, but that was (and still is) over several years -- I'm still investing in gear... but I still basically use every piece I've ever bought... the trick I think is to buy once. Don't skimp... get something you can expand or add to when the time is right. I didn't get Metacorder until I absolutely knew I would use it enough for it to pay for itself many times over. The cart has been through many incarnations, but very little has been wasted.

Start with a good portable multitracker and bag system that can be converted to a cart when you're ready.

~tt

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I don't have enough experience with Time Code input but can you explain how to achieve Time Code input via analog track? Newbie.

Sure, get a rock-solid timecode generator like a Denecke GR-1 or the brand-new GR-2, feed the timecode output into the analog audio input of the laptop, and route it accordingly with the menus in Metacorder. Metacorder manual is here:

http://www.gallery.c...rder/intro.html

plus there's a demo version you can try out. It's not a cheap program (I think $1500), but there's no way to do this many channels for less. The alternative would be to rent an 8-track or 12-track machine for days when you needed that many tracks, or try to get by with a cheaper machine like a 4-track SD 744t.

Don't forget, you'll also want to get a timecode slate, preferably one that will jam to the generator and run for X number of hours (typically 6- 8) without having to rejam. Those you can rent comparatively cheap, like maybe $25 a day (in major cities).

Tom Taylor's advice above is also right on -- all good suggestions.

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the problem is clock accuracy. The clocks in most firewire recording devices are not that accurate giving you frame drift. you can have the most accurate time code in the world, but once you hit record, if you are 10 frames off at the end of a 30 minute take, who cares what time it started at...

I have put a lot of thought into my metacorder cart, and I believe it is as good as a metacorder cart can possibly be. It might not be as reliable as a soul purpose recorder, but in the 2 years I have had it I have never lost a single take because of a freeze up or error. If done right I don't think there is a single cart alternative out there that can be as flexible.

although it is heavy, I absolutely love working with it, and I always get compliments on my setup. It is completely silent, from the preamp to the HDD is a completely in the digital domain, (minus the mix track, I mix analog) I have video monitor and metacorder in the same monitor, I have a ton of routing options and outputs, and it doubles as a playback cart and mobile ProTools 10 rig.

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I don't have any pictures right now, and its packed up in my car at the moment. I will take some pictures as soon as I can.

The whole thing is built around a 16u star case. I am built and ready in about 5 minutes. I take the front and back covers off, plug in to power, plug in the boom, and im done.

it starts with focusrite preamps.

optical out of preamps to a 003 (thinking of switching to apogee ensemble)

analog outs of preamps to a 802 line mixer

802 output into 003 for the mix track,

Time code and word clock come from an SB3 and syncs with the 003 and the focusrites.

When I need a monitor I use a teredek cube. I put the image on the same monitor as metacorder, and my boom op can see the frame on an ios or android device mounted either to the pole or on one of those athletic wrist case things.

The whole thing is run by a mac mini in a drawer on the bottom of the rack. I run VNC on there as well as on a tablet. I can remote control metacorder from anywhere where I have a wifi signal. When I LAV the talent I bring the tablet with me so I can see the signal in metacorder as I put the mic on.

The choice of the 003 was so I could double as a mobile ProTools cart and do some quick editing or playback. It was really great when people would say "Can we fix that in post?" and I would pull up ProTools, mess with the track in question for a minute, then have a definite answer and example of what the finished sound would be like. Now that avid has made ProTools compatible with any CoreAudio IO, im starting to look at better options.

I have deleted all software I don't need from the mac mini that I don't use for production. I keep an eye on all my processes throughout the day and make sure there is nothing running that doesn't need to be.

Again, I have been running some variation of a metacorder cart for a couple years now. It's a rock solid piece of hardware and I have not had a single issue with it in the time I have been using it.

I will take pictures as soon as I can, but you really need to see how it's all put together and see it working to truly appreciate it.

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