Neve Mic pre on Location

[Greg]

Hello fellow Sound Pros

I'm looking for feedback on an idea I have.

I thinking of getting a NEVE portico 5015 onto set because Im not happy with my SD 788T pre amps. I find the noise floor too high especially when doing quite ATMOS tracks in the AFRICAN bush.

http://rupertneve.com/products/portico-5015/

The unit can run on 15 VDC, I can get a converter built to run from my BDS. It also has good RF rejection because of the transformer based electronics.

But is it really a good idea for dialogue?

I'm trying to get hold of a NEVE channel strip here in Cape Town but it's proven to be a difficult exercise . Is there too much coloration in the pre amp for film, and does it actually matter?

most of the films done here in SA are either send back to the US or UK for post ( Where NEVE and SSL live in post ) or if it's local it is mixed using protools D command / control 24 / or some makie HUI controller and bussed / bounced using interanal plugins .

I'm sure that Analogue tape used in the past had similar coloration aspects, and when used for film was very acceptable.

Because I can't afford a Cooper / Sonosax that has all the range and sound, I thought that inserting a NEVE 5015 and bussing a 5033 before the 788T mic channels could 'give extra' to the sound quality.

I can then have the choice between a CL8 or CL9 as a controller.

I would love to be able to set up and increase my dynamic range to get the softer bits in performance while also 'grabbing' high transients when performances in the same take reach higher levels, with-out riding the front end gain and not feeling the compression.

Thanks

Greg Albert

Cape Town .

[Winter]

Hi Greg,

I'm not sure you want the Portico for dialogue recording or atmos recording. I guess that using the same pres for all the dialogues will be something post guys will appreciate a lot. If you need more clean gain for atmos, well, i'd go with the Portico if it serves you better. Anyway i do personally prefer to record atmos in m/s, if stereo is not needed just a mute button needs to be pressed, but this is strictly related to the kind of production you are working on.

I don't know about your dynamic issues, but i can say that most of time riding levels is the only possibility, i don't know any preamp that can make you record a whisper and then a yell with the same gain setting; i'd love to be contradicted on this point.

[Tom Visser]

The Portico preamps are great preamps. They are quite a bit different topology than the class A 1073 circuit that Rupert is best known for. They are also different than the class AB 1081 type preamp. They are a different creature altogether, but honestly, I think that the noise floor would only increase compared to the 788t preamp, for the application you cite, dialogue recording. Most preamps, even those that are touted as "colored" are really only truly colored when they are pushed hard. If I had to rate the preamp on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being the most colored, a 1073 is probably an 8, Sound Devices a 2, and the Portico something like a 4... maybe a bit more if Silk is engaged and being really driven. Typical dialogue recording under field conditions barely gets the typical preamp working. I would guess that either you are trying to push your levels too hot, it is ok for soft dialogue to be recording at a conservative level, or you could benefit from upgrading to a quieter microphone.

The quietest performance could probably be gained from something like a Super CMIT or Sennheiser MKH8060 utilizing the 788's AES42 mode. For traditional analog mics, you'd be hard pressed to find anything with less self noise than an MKH60. Also check your cabling to make sure a wire fault or ground issue is not contributing to the noise that your experiencing.

If you are really dedicated to finding a solution to your problem through electronics, assuming that you don't have other issues, you could try searching for a preamp that is generally well regarded for acoustic instrumentation or classical recording, rather than a general purpose pre like the Portico. Fred Forssell, GML, or one of my all time fans, the DACs Clarity Micamp, would be good places too look, but really, the 788t pres are pretty quiet and would really be surprised if that is actually your issue.

[VASI]

I thinking of getting a NEVE portico 5015 onto set because Im not happy with my SD 788T pre amps. I find the noise floor too high especially when doing quite ATMOS tracks in the AFRICAN bush.

What microphones are used?

[davidm]

Greg,

I don't think you'll get any significant noise improvement by using the Neve preamp over the 788T.

Preamp noise performance is traditionally measured as "equivalent input noise" referenced to a 150 or 200 ohm resistor. The thermal noise of a 150 ohm resistor is -130.9 dBu and a 200 ohm resistor is -129.6 dBu.

Sound Devices don't do us any favors here by stating their "EIN" for the 788T but have a look at some specs of other products:

SD 302: -126dBu (? ohm)

SD 744T: -128dBu (150 ohm)

Sonosax SX-ST: -128dBu (150ohm)

Neve 5015: better than -128dBu (150 ohm)

The Neve can't deliver more than a 2.9dB noise improvement over a 744T because of the -130.9 dBu limit and in the big scheme of things, there's not much in it. The 788T noise performance expressed as EIN is likely to be around -128dBu.

I agree with Tom Visser in that you won't find a quieter mic than a MKH60 going by it's noise spec. The Sennhesier MKH series have always had an edge on other capacitor mic's. But again, in the big scheme of things, they don't necessarily deliver a significant practical noise performance advantage over say a Schoeps mic.

Microphone preamp noise and the microphones inherent internal noise are always evident when undertaking quiet ambience and subtle sound effect recordings. Of course some might prefer the thermal noise "color" of one particualr microphone or preamplifier.....

[Greg]

Thanks for all your input guys it's given me some useful guide lines to re think.

Im using a CMIT 5U as my primary microphone.

I guess I will have to look into the best cabling I can get here for those ATMOS tracks. I need to look for a good stereo microphone !

To run wireless on the boom for now I'm using a 302 to power the CMIT and transmitting it via a 400 series Lectro system. The return feed for TB is via a G3 system. I find that the boom op can give me more options on the front end and it works well for 2 way communication. But this could also be where I'm picking up so extra noise for dialogue ?

I'm getting a CL8 + CL9 soon too so lets see if the dynamic operation improve.

Thanks again

All the best from Cape Town

Greg