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AFW: VALUE "get to know me rates" ! Moving to NYC


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Hello Chris ... I think sometimes we should concede and quit while we're ahead ... and being Indian and never having heard of either of the two films that you've spoken off ... I think some of us are production mixing and sound design films that are much much better sounding than you'd like to think ... so dear friend take each day as it comes and with it a spoonful of humility ... at the end of the days its not about how much you earn each day instead the attitude ....

Many wishes

Baylon Fonseca

-

The Sound Architect

Mumbai, India

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I wish my cart was only $30k, and I'm no veteran. And "ads" are a pretty sought after gig in the big markets.

If I was young and had the ability to move to a new town and pronounce myself as a mixer, I wouldn't pick the most expensive city in the country with a high concentration of more experienced mixers. I'd pick an emerging market full of other less experienced mixers. Shows in Atlanta and Louisiana are hiring "local mixers" left and right without regard for experience. While the more established mixers in those areas will get the better jobs, you might have a better shot at some good gigs which will pay the bills than you would in a place like New York or Los Angeles.

Best of luck - you may discover being a bigger fish in a small pond, making your rent in one day of work, isn't so bad after all.

Robert

+11... Much wisdom here from Robert.

Dude, my bag rig is worth more than $30k... not trying to brag -- equipment investment has all kinds of hidden costs. My point is -- enjoy the ride. Someday you'll be sitting behind your $75k sound cart, next to your $60k follow cart, and think, "man, this is cool, but it sure was a lot simpler when all I had was a 702T, a 416, and a few Lectro's."

I was fortunate in a way to shoot up rather quickly in my career -- started as a Boom Op on low-budget features, but was mixing them within a few years, have done a little bit of network episodic... but I've always been pretty reliant on the immediate market in which I work. When things dry up (and they do, even if only temporarily) it's good to have a broader network, and some diversity in your bag (pun intended)...

Just reiterating what Robert (and others) have said here, but you really need to come to grips with the fact that you're gonna have to be patient, do a lot of networking, and bide your time intelligently... creep, crawl, walk, run... fly... teleport... transmutate... transmogrify... transcend... whatever, just enjoy the ride because the spacetime continuum to which you refer has a really steep exponential curve to it, and you're gonna be looking back in no time, wondering where it all went. Enjoy every moment -- relish in the smaller, simpler gigs... the time off between gigs. Sound mixing is really cool... but so is having a life ;)

~tt

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If I was young and had the ability to move to a new town and pronounce myself as a mixer, I wouldn't pick the most expensive city in the country with a high concentration of more experienced mixers. I'd pick an emerging market full of other less experienced mixers. Shows in Atlanta and Louisiana are hiring "local mixers" left and right without regard for experience. While the more established mixers in those areas will get the better jobs, you might have a better shot at some good gigs which will pay the bills than you would in a place like New York or Los Angeles.

+ 1

Those two markets can be brutal... even for mixers with connections and experience.

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Umm... I live in Atlanta, and feel that I productions here hire experienced mixers.

I have my own niche and specialty on studio projects, and very occasionally take short term production mixing jobs, gauging very carefuly if I have the kit and skills to deliver good work to the client.

I have been working on my skills and kit for the last seven years or so, and still believe I will always have a LOT to learn.

I have built a cart, though about half my jobs can be done from a bag.

Have not run into anything I could do with less than a 4 track recorder (well.... I could have, but the client's editor would have complained)

As a union member, I do hold a line on the working conditions, and work hard to uphold those standards even on non-union shows.

If you joined the pool of people in our town, you will need to become a member to work on union shows. You would be eligible to join after 18 months of in state residency, IIRC.

There is corporate, news, and reality work done by a few non-union folk, but the regularly employed are WAY more experienced than you are at this point.

We do have the usual craigslist requests for mixers/recordists at $75/day with gear... but you don't grow from doing those...

We don't seem to have a lot of actual non-union feature films anymore... unlike 15+ years ago... I don't miss them...

On my continuing rambling tangents.. Do you like where you live and work? Time and practice will make you into the bigger fish in your part of the world, and the day rate to rent ratio you mention is pretty unbeatable. Marketing what you can do will get you work from travelling non-fiction productions... and a cold reality is that there probably about the correct number of feature experienced mixers for the amount of production created in North America. We may well have more mixers than jobs at present.. other forum members are welcome to weigh in on this...

as I am sure they will

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wow. i can't believe this thread is still going. crazy.

all of you guys have good advice and i've listened to/read it with an open mind. i'm still going to try. i'm young enough and willing to work hard for it.

Do you like where you live and work?

no i don't. i thank you too for your advice and perspective but this was probably the most imporatant thing in your post. "do you like where you live and work?" the fact that i actually hate it here is what is pushing me to leave.

i get bored in small cities like el paso. my personality fits much better in major cities like NY, Vancouver, San Fran.

my personal feeling is that someday i'll be old and then dead. what did i do with my life? did i just sit back and let rent money come in by working one day a month in a small shitty town where i'll probably never really grow in my field? or did i take a leap of faith, push hard, and create the life i wanted? even if i fail, i think doing the latter is a much better choice. in NY there are so many opportunities (in and outside the film industry) that SOMETHING has to happen. with a good attitude, hard work, lots of studying, i don't think i can go wrong. i may not get exactly what i want but i might get close. i might even be led in a very different direction. who knows?

thank you again to ALL of you for your post (even the negative ones 8) ). your collective wisdom and advice has changed my perspective and my plan of attack.

much much appreciated. sorry if i came off like an asshole. i'm really not. >:D

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and being Indian and never having heard of either of the two films that you've spoken off

well, there are probably a few reason why you haven't haven't heard of them.

1) out of the two indian movies i've mixed, one hasn't been released yet, and the other is a Marathi film so unless you speak Marathi you probably haven't seen it. (its called Shala btw and has already won two national awards.)

2) you Indians make 900+ movies a year. its no surprise if you havent' heard of one or two films. the odds are not in your favor by sheer volume alone.

something to think about...

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Hey Chris,

FWIW, some of the more "negative" posts here might come from colleagues who have been at this for decades, and have experienced first-hand the feast-or-famine conditions under which we must persevere.

Taking it with a grain of salt (as you have) is commendable, and in the end you have to plot your own course anyways. I think some of the "warnings" you might be getting here are truly in the spirit of simply trying to instill a sense of patience and let you know that, while your aspirations are noble, you should be prepared for a long slow climb... it sounds to me like you are, and I'm sure with the tenacity you possess, you'll eventually reach cruising altitude, wherever you choose to live. Hang in there, and good luck to you : )

~tt

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+1 what Tom said.

I totally agree with your decision to go through life making choices for what you really want rather than just sailing along complacently. Commendable. Go for it. I doubt you'll find much disagreement about that.

I don't think much of the input you received here was negative, unless you consider directness and honesty to be negative.

You did run into a couple of issues, however. One issue was trying too hard to prove how much you think you already know, which is a strong indication to those of us who have spent enough years that we feel humbled by how much we don't know, that you are still "wet behind the ears" as the saying goes. For instance, when I, and others, tried to talk to you about rates, you staunchly defended lower rates and changed "cheap" in the topic header to "Value 'get to know me rates'" which still tells established mixers that you intend to undercut them. If I were trying to be delicate, I'd call that "ill-advised." If I'm being frankly honest, I'd say, "Dumb move" with either header.

Some of your best allies in both career growth and getting gigs is other sound mixers. If they feel like you're screwing with their income in any way, you've damaged some of your best connections. The only clients I'd refer to someone like that is a client that I'm desperate to get rid of because they are cheap, abuse workers, don't pay on time, and are a pain to deal with. If you're serious about improving your quality of life I'm guessing that bottom-feeding isn't the best direction to head.

So, if you really want to make quality life choices: Think high. Aim high. (Just don't go to work high.)

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Not in El Paso. this is a tiny town and I have to fight for that rate. people all over the world already undervalue sound and working in a very small community with people of limited knowledge about production don't even want to pay $200/day. Hence why I want to get the hell out of here.

Just to put things into perspective, I have been flown into El Paso from Philadelphia to mix at my normal day rate. Plane tickets paid for, hotels paid for etc. We shot "in the area" of El Paso and in NM, but that was the airport I landed in. It was a new client for me, but the camera guy said he wanted me, and my credits were good enough to them. I am sure they would have liked to have somebody that didn't require plane tickets for easy, but important, audio from one lav and a boom mixed straight to camera. Hiring a cheaper local was not worth risking having useless audio or the whole trip would have been down the drain.

People are right that selling yourself as cheap may not lead to the clients you really want. That applies in El Paso, NYC or Brazil. Sell your skills. Most projects budget an appropriate rate for sound. *Most* projects are not going to risk the whole job by saving $200 on sound. The $200 saved could mean the whole interview was blown and 4 or 5 round trip plane tickets, hotels, rental cars, day rates, gear rental were all pissed away for $200. If you have a good local client that keeps your rent paid, then you may work something out with them, but that is a slippery slope.

I'm not sure any of the seasoned vets here will tell you the best jobs they have had were booked because they cut their day rate. If anything, the jobs I did for less (using the "less is better than making $0" philosophy) were usually backbreakers for irritating clients.

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Just to put things into perspective, I have been flown into El Paso from Philadelphia to mix at my normal day rate. Plane tickets paid for, hotels paid for etc. We shot "in the area" of El Paso and in NM, but that was the airport I landed in. It was a new client for me, but the camera guy said he wanted me, and my credits were good enough to them. I am sure they would have liked to have somebody that didn't require plane tickets for easy, but important, audio from one lav and a boom mixed straight to camera. Hiring a cheaper local was not worth risking having useless audio or the whole trip would have been down the drain.

People are right that selling yourself as cheap may not lead to the clients you really want. That applies in El Paso, NYC or Brazil. Sell your skills. Most projects budget an appropriate rate for sound. *Most* projects are not going to risk the whole job by saving $200 on sound. The $200 saved could mean the whole interview was blown and 4 or 5 round trip plane tickets, hotels, rental cars, day rates, gear rental were all pissed away for $200. If you have a good local client that keeps your rent paid, then you may work something out with them, but that is a slippery slope.

I'm not sure any of the seasoned vets here will tell you the best jobs they have had were booked because they cut their day rate. If anything, the jobs I did for less (using the "less is better than making $0" philosophy) were usually backbreakers for irritating clients.

This is spot on -- and those irritating clients are the first to go by the wayside as soon as things pick up. You have to eat, and you have to pay your bills, but be very careful what kind of precedent you set -- it's like pulling teeth trying to get beyond a bad rate with a client once you accept it.

~tt

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+1 what Tom said.

I totally agree with your decision to go through life making choices for what you really want rather than just sailing along complacently. Commendable. Go for it. I doubt you'll find much disagreement about that.

I don't think much of the input you received here was negative, unless you consider directness and honesty to be negative.

You did run into a couple of issues, however. One issue was trying too hard to prove how much you think you already know, which is a strong indication to those of us who have spent enough years that we feel humbled by how much we don't know, that you are still "wet behind the ears" as the saying goes. For instance, when I, and others, tried to talk to you about rates, you staunchly defended lower rates and changed "cheap" in the topic header to "Value 'get to know me rates'" which still tells established mixers that you intend to undercut them. If I were trying to be delicate, I'd call that "ill-advised." If I'm being frankly honest, I'd say, "Dumb move" with either header.

you're right it wasn't "negative" maybe just came off as negative. and i never meant to undercut anyone. any film job that is paying a lower rate for a mixer is probably a low budget film and probably (i'm making an assumption here) NOT a gig that seasoned mixers want anyway, unless they are really hurting. but if they are hurting, then so are us newbies.

the thing about "trying too hard to prove what i know" was just to let all you guys that i'm not some PA who suddenly wants to do sound. i DO know some things. but yes, i realize there is a lot i DON'T know. i should have made it more clear on both these issues. my apologies to everyone.

So, if you really want to make quality life choices: Think high. Aim high. (Just don't go to work high.)

lol. never do. never will. thanks for your advice!

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Hey Chris,

FWIW, some of the more "negative" posts here might come from colleagues who have been at this for decades, and have experienced first-hand the feast-or-famine conditions under which we must persevere.

Taking it with a grain of salt (as you have) is commendable, and in the end you have to plot your own course anyways. I think some of the "warnings" you might be getting here are truly in the spirit of simply trying to instill a sense of patience and let you know that, while your aspirations are noble, you should be prepared for a long slow climb... it sounds to me like you are, and I'm sure with the tenacity you possess, you'll eventually reach cruising altitude, wherever you choose to live. Hang in there, and good luck to you : )

~tt

thank you for your words! :)

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