Shooting in a Swimming Pool

[Mark Andrews]

Does anyone here have experience of shooting in a swimming pool location? I am mixing a short film weekend after next where the character is training for a swimming competition, and then the competition is shown. Having just visited the location, this seems to be problematic for a number of reasons, and I would appreciate any advice you guys/girls have to offer.

Key Points of Concern:

1) It is an indoor pool, so acoustics are just about as bad as it can get.

2) The pool is one that has no 'edge', so water constantly spills over into the drains, and causes a LOT of noise. My noise meter app was hitting 80db when it was anywhere close to the edge. Infact it was hard to talk amongst ourselves down by the poolside for this reason.

3) As the characters will be very close to poolside, I am reluctant to wire them for health and safety reasons (and to keep my kit safe, just incase). Should I be concerned with this, or just take the risk?

4) The only decent boom mics in my kit are shotguns. And with the acoustic reflections I imagine this the worst place to use a 416. Should I be looking at renting a hypercardiod mic? If so would an MKH50 be a good choice, or can anyone recommend a better alternative for dialog recording in such a noisy space?

5) Several of the shots will take place underwater, and they want accompanying sound. Production are happy to rent a DPA Hydrophone, but having never had experience with a hydrophone, is there anything I need to watch out for or do differently compared to how I would use microphones?

6) They are also filling out the seats above the pool with extras and wish to capture "crowd noise" (cheering, clapping, etc) from the extras for use in the film. As the crowd will be on the balcony, I can't get mics correctly placed directly infront and above of them. What might be a good mic setup for large crowds in such a space?

Pics of location are attached. The crowd will be sat in the chairs you see in picture 1. The corner of the pool you see in picture 2 is where a two person dialog scene will be shot (both characters standing outside the pool), and there is general one to show the room, taken from the balcony.

Anyone have any comments/suggestions?

Thanks,

~Mark.

[taylormadeaudio]

If and when the characters are clothed, you could use Lectro MM400's if you're worried about them getting wet. (and I like the Countryman EMW's for wet work) Otherwise... there are so many variables here...

I would emphatically reiterate the importance of getting clean CU's and/or (clean) wild lines if at all possible... also, I'd stay away from Schoeps mics... notorious for condensation issues in humid environments. I actually recently used a 416 in an indoor pool location with surprisingly good results -- there was no crowd though, and yes, every tiny little squeak of a noise carried through the place like light in a house of mirrors.

I do not envy you in this situation -- a good 1st AD will be your best friend that day : )

I should add that on the positive side of things, as long as the viewer sees this environment, a lot of its "acoustical hostility" will play... get the mics as close as possible, and try and provide a few choices for the post people if possible.

~tt

[atheisticmystic]

This post is like watching an intense trailer, and thinking, "I gotta see that movie!"

Very much looking forward to this thread.

Best

[Jon Gilbert]

I worked on a doc about high diving, and 99% of it was shot in indoor swimming pools, the Sanken CS3e and a longer pole than I normally use saved my bacon for any dialogue in the pool itself, I didn't have to get as close as I was expecting. Be prepared to get very hot!

[Marco Lopez]

Man it's a tough one, but I think it's possible to accomplish a good result.

1. For the acoustic part, I would definitely ask from the production to cover a big part of the ceiling with hanging blankets. For the close ups I would use a second layer of blankets, above the speaking actors and a third one on the floor, and a 4th one blocking the sound coming from the walls or windows, so you can diminish the reverb in the wanted area.

2. Now for the drain issue, I would ask from the production, for the close up parts, to lower the level of the water enough so I doesn't come out, provided that the pool behind the speaking actors is out of focus, and you cannot tell that the water level has changed.

3. For the safety part of the wirelles system I would use the Aquapac 158 or 554 depending on which system you'll use.

4. For lav mics someone suggested to me the VT500 water, which can be sumerged temporarily under water...don't know exactly for how long...

5. As for the boom mic, I would try out a cardioid mic, or perhaps with the treatment you could use a shotgun.

6. For the crowd walla I would plan that part previous the shooting with the director. According with the shots and how the story evolves I would record specific sounds, like for example, just people talking normaly. Then more excited and then cheering. You could record a couple of people whisteling and cheering for their team or swimmer individually, and then of course the applauding part using the same variations as the vocal ones. The sound designer will appreciate that.

It surely sounds interesting and a challenge one. I would like to see how it goes. Good luck.

[studiomprd]

Well, for the most part, the OP's analysis is correct...

" Should I be concerned with this, or just take the risk? "

with the right tools, no issues. SM's are splash resistant, MM's are water-resistant (consider them waterproof) as for taking the risk, the production is taking the risk, and you have their certificate of insurance.... right??

generally, it will sound like what it looks like even the crowd sounds.

" Production are happy to rent a DPA Hydrophone, "

obviously they have $$, but the results will disappoint.

" would an MKH50 be a good choice, or can anyone recommend a better alternative for dialog recording in such a noisy space? "

alternative mics are endlessly discussed here.

[chrisnewton]

416 for the dialogue. boom from underneath if possible. mic the cheering crowd with a planted wireless lav, and use 416 at a distance on separate track. If the underwater cam is a GO-Pro or something in an underwater housing, the onboard mics may work better than you might think. Can't hurt to use the tracks anyway, no extra charge. If the coverage allows, try and get the dialogue scenes without any extra background noise ie: no swimming, cheering etc. Closeups will be every department's friend in this situation. There will be lots of fans/air exchangers running. Get 'em turned off if you can, if you can't, carry on. wear shorts, flip-flops/water shoes. have a towel handy. enjoy.

chris newton

[RPSharman]

The good news is that the audience will not be as distracted by echo, since everyone knows that's what it's supposed to sound like. The bad news is that it becomes more distracting over time. But people adjust.

You don't want to do too much switching between mic types, so while putting lavs on can help for some shots, you'll want to balance them out so their use is less obvious in comparison to when your only choice is the boom.

If they have 2 cameras, talk to the director early about shooting single-camera masters. Or wide and a bit less wide. Match headroom for all two-camera setups.

Fabric and furni pads and such might help a bit, or some sheets of hogs hair below the actors where the water laps on the sides. You can also cheat the close-ups away from the side of the pool to reduce that effect. Also, booming from below might help with the water issue if you can get a 4x overhead. But once again, matching can be affected.

Underwater will yield weird and varying results, but that's usually the effect they want.

Just do the best you can with crowd noise. That's what post is for.

Good luck. It's a tough one.

[Tom Visser]

Would it be possible to cheat the CU shots? IS there a different part of the building with similar architectural color schemes / window hardware, matching light, etc? Light boxes setup to simulate reflecting water, etc? I've done a lot of indy features that do silly things like shoot in busy China town locations, with busy traffic, exhaust vents, and end up with CU shots that show any nondescript brick wall as a backdrop that could have been any wall out in the countryside.

[pvanstry]

CS3e for dialog ( or MKH50 very close ).

I would use the collums to tape lavalier and transmitter for the crowd, that way they are hidden. Or if you have space then use cardiod on transmitter.

Threat as much as possible the ceilling and or near the actor.

Lower the pool level ( that's a great idea for sure ).

Make sure to tell production that it is going near impossible for you and that they have to listen to you more then the DOP for that day, meaning that any dialog that they want to hear, they need really close shots of them not some stupid wide shot.

Have fun and let us know the result.

[Mark Andrews]

Thanks for the responses. Lots of fantastic ideas here. I have a production meeting tomorrow, so this gives me a great list of things to go through with the team. The nice thing about this project is there is prep time to sort out all of the tricky situations.

I'd just like to take a moment to respond to some of you.

Senator: "the production is taking the risk, and you have their certificate of insurance.... right??

I have not seen it yet, but I will make sure I get a copy before I step out on set. That was right at the top on my priority list to check! Thanks for the reminder though.

Senator: "obviously they have $$'

Yes and no. They have SOME, but not a bottomless pit. It's a case of if something is really needed, it can be got, as long as the price is not too high. Something like paying $30 for a day's hydrophone rental they will do, and I'll be able to sneak in an extra mic on the rental order.

pvantry: "CS3e for dialog ( or MKH50 very close )."

I probably won't be able to get both under the budget, as i'm already pushing it with a 442 mixer rental for 4 days, and charging for my existing kit. Seeing as I have a 416 available, and that I have had several responses it should perform okay, i'll probably stick in a request to have the 50 in my kitlist, just to give me options.

pvantry: "Treat as much as possible the ceilling and or near the actor"

I'll raise that point in the production meeting. We need to find a way to do it that can be quickly changed, as setup time will be a factor when shooting. Perhaps I can setup some drapes on a C-Stand that can be quickly moved in and out around the actors.

chrisnewton: " If the underwater cam is a GO-Pro or something"

It's an Alexa... and it's on a gib.

chrisnewton: "have a towel handy"

This kind of advice is why I come here. Something so simple that I probably would have overlooked. Thank you!

Marco Lopez: " lower the level of the water enough so I doesn't come out"

I'll ask about that tomorrow. I have a feeling they will say no unless it's simple for them to do it. The producer has already told me "We have ADR facilities available".

RPSharman: "You can also cheat the close-ups away from the side of the pool"

Definitely want to do this. Great idea.

Thanks for all of the great input! Starting to feel like I can actually pull this off! I will keep you all updated as we progress.

[Jim Feeley]

If they're renting an Alexa, convince them to spring for both the CS3e & the MKH50. If nothing else, so you'll have the CS3e if the 416 takes dips through the frame and into the water...or if the 416 doesn't do it for you. Seems like a small additional cost to help insure that you get through your day and/or keep the ADR bill under control.

>have a towel handy.

Good to see Chris follows the advice of The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Universe.

Sounds like a fun day. Let us know how it goes...

[studiomprd]

" lower the level of the water enough so I doesn't come out"

I suspect there would be technical and or cost issues preventing this from being a viable option

[MatthewFreedAudio]

Make sure production does something about the wet floors that you or your boom op will have to walk on. Having sure footing is important! Carrying gear on a slippery floor sounds like a great way to injure yourself and the gear.

www.matthewfreed.com

Production Sound Mixing for TV, Films, and Commercials

[Ed White]

Shutting off the flowing water is the only way to go. If you look at the pool scene in "Let Me In" you will notice that the "edge" of the pool where the actors are holding on and doing dialouge would actually be under flowing water if it hadn't been turned off for sound. WAY better for everyone. The problem is when you turn that stuff off the pool is no longer being filtered or heated. That will make any pool manager nervous. The system we came up with, (with the help of an extremely cooperative site rep), was to turn off all pool pumps and motors at call time, turn everything on immediately at lunch to run for a minimum of 1 hour with the heater on high, shut off for rest of shoot day, and turn everything back on at wrap. That way it was always the same for everybody with no waiting, and the pool people were ok with the water sitting for 6 hrs max. (Give or take.) We then also controlled exhaust fans, etc. while rolling. Just like any where else. It got hot. Totally worth it.

Good Luck

[Scott Clements, CAS]

We had a pool that looked almost exactly like that one in the movie Dolphin Tale. We worked closely with the liaison at the location, and he was quite helpful in turning off the water so we didn't have to deal with the water, or the pumps. The biggest help was turning off the venting and cooling systems in there. Those were super noisy, and it got hot quick. But everyone just had to deal with it. Ended up being one of the best sound locations on the shoot.

Watch the blockings, and if the actors aren't supposed to go in the pool, I wouldn't hesitate to mic them. Just let them know not to pull a crazy "jump in the water" joke without taking off your $2000 worth of gear. Hair, Makeup and wardrobe will not want them in the water unless the scene calls for it either.

For the boom, we used MKH50 whenever we could get in close. The scenes we did in there sounded great!

I did a straight to DVD movie called Ace Ventura, Jr., and we had a much crazier aquatic center in that one. It had big open windows for venting, that vented right out onto the interstate, and echo was RIDICULOUS!!!! We didn't have control over the pumps and equipment, and I left that day pretty roughed up. In the end, the did not adr the scenes and it sounded surprisingly good. It's amazing what those post wizards can do now a-days...

Oh, and for acoustics... hopefully the grips will build some big ole 20 bys... Talk to the DP and see if he could have a couple there to suck up some of the sound. We had them on both the movies above (because they were using them anyway...), and I had them put a bunch up on a commercial we shot in a quonset hut... helped a bunch!!! and if they don't want to build the frames, they can clip up a 20 by solid on a pipe and run it up for you...

Good luck with the shoot!

scott

[Rich Reilly]

Seems like how close you will be getting to subject would be the greater determinant in terms of renting an additional mic. You can always back off the CS3e for closeups, the MKH50 might not be able to get close enough to be beneficial. Seems like this kind of scenario plays to CS3 strengths. $.02

You mention an Alexa. Are you sure that means one camera?

If you're mixing in the room..with the strange acoustics and various noise sources, might want to have cans with more isolation than 7506.

You'll be plenty busy but keep an eye out for reckless electrical scenarios..

If possible, a test run with your mic(s) before shoot day might be worth the assurance it might give.

Somehow, I have shot a surprising number of b-roll situations in pools...always so glad sound was not important. Feel for ya.

[studiomprd]

BTW, might want to re-title this thread : Shooting at a swimming pool

[taylormadeaudio]

Nice one Senator : )... actually got me laughing

~tt

[geordi]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this solution for the drains...

Draining the water level is unlikely to be acceptable, the size of that pool means you are talking THOUSANDS of gallons to lower the water just a couple inches. A better (and cheaper!) solution would be to have LOTS of furniture pads. Roll them into long tube shapes, and lay them across the top of the drain line lengthwise anywhere that the camera isn't pointing. Yea, they will get soaked, but they will drip into the drain rather than allowing the water to spread or make all that noise.

With regard to the hydrophone... Out in the ocean, maybe. In a pool like that, think about using the most sensitive microphone you can think of, in a 5-sided room of solid glass walls. That is about what it will sound like underwater. I did a shoot *in* a pool last year, and since I had the hydrophone, decided to have some fun with it. I tied a small pelican case to a sandbag, and sunk it in the middle of the pool. The pelican wanted to float, so I now had a stationary string in the water that I clipped the hydrophone to with an A-clamp.

It picked up EVERYTHING that happened under water, with echos too. The lead actor "made bubbles" at one point... I thought he was on top of the mic. He was 30 feet away. Sound travels faster underwater, so everything will be higher pitched as well. Might need some post massaging to make it sound "right" to the audience. Personally, I wouldn't count on too much from it, but instead think about keeping its level turned down to minimize the reflection energy. The good part - You won't hear much of anything that doesn't break the surface of the water. The bad part - You WILL hear every tiny little drip that hits the surface, and any lapping / concrete contact that the moving water hits.

[studiomprd]

" Sound travels faster underwater, so everything will be higher pitched "

I'm not certain of your logic...

[geordi]

"In common everyday speech, speed of sound refers to the speed of sound waves in air. However, the speed of sound varies from substance to substance. Sound travels faster in liquids and non-porous solids than it does in air. It travels about 4.3 times faster in water (1,484 m/s), and nearly 15 times as fast in iron (5,120 m/s), than in air at 20 degrees Celsius."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_of_sound

Speed of sound in air is 343.2 metres per second (1,126 ft/s). I attributed what I hear through the hydrophone as higher-pitched than it should be, to this faster speed. We have all heard the soothing sounds of water lapping against a rock or other object, yet that same sound when heard from underwater in the pool was much higher pitched.

My logic is based on practical experience of the circumstances that I detailed in that post. What is YOUR logic and theory?

[Ed White]

No water needs to be removed from the pool. You just turn the switch off and all the noise stops. It's free.

[studiomprd]

" higher-pitched than it should be, "

well: higher-pitched than you expected it to be

the speed at which sound is traveling does not change the frequencies

[LarryF]

Correct. The speed of sound in the medium won't change the frequency. The speed of the source or the observer relative to one another will alter the frequency (Doppler effect) but that isn't the case here. If you want to confirm this, put the post end of a tuning fork in water and listen to the sound in the water. It will stay the same. What is happening in the swimming pool case is that the water and/or hydrophone is emphasizing the high frequencies and attenuating the low frequencies thereby shifting the perceived "noise" to a higher frequency average.

Best,

Larry F

Lectro

the speed at which sound is traveling does not change the frequencies