studiomprd Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 " i don't want my name going on some project and the sound was crap " then put a canard on your deal memo... personally, who cares ? not me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 " i don't want my name going on some project and the sound was crap " then put a canard on your deal memo... Yup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 If everybody is experienced and responsible calling "marker" only will work, but many shoots I do they decide to change scene names all of a sudden and forget to tell me, so it helps when listening back if I'm not sure my naming on the meta data was correct. Add a zoom lens to the mix and it's a freaking mystery when they change scene names. I've worked with an old DP that seem to think that only camera department needs to know that info before the slate goes up. Made my life hell, especially when using a Fostex (where you pre-name the files). It's because of people like I gave up saying the scene + take into the slate mic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Add a zoom lens to the mix and it's a freaking mystery when they change scene names. I've worked with an old DP that seem to think that only camera department needs to know that info before the slate goes up. Made my life hell, especially when using a Fostex (where you pre-name the files). It's because of people like I gave up saying the scene + take into the slate mic. That would drive me crazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toy Robot Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 ...to which you reply, "Sure, I'll record that construction site and those busy roads with the utmost of clarity... you'll be able to tell the make and model of each vehicle, I'll record it so cleanly...". ~tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Reilly Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 "this is why you hired me. because i know more about sound than you do. if you don't want to listen to what i'm suggesting you will have problems in post. better to do it my way," Hmmm..probably a better way to put that. More along the lines of "I understand the pressures right now..but this will save you trouble later." Something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sjohns37 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Tries to record an interview on a Zoom H4n in 4 channel mode on an SD card that's only class 4 and ends up with tons of write errors. ...That was me today Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 A man's got to know his limitations... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sjohns37 Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 A man's got to know his limitations... Yeah, I ordered a new card immediately. I was so happy I finally got to use the ext mic jack on the back but that poor little card couldn't handle all that info :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisH Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Ya... im a total noob if this is the case. Maybe if I got to work on a production that has a real budget to develop an accurate shot list I wouldn't have to ask anyone wtf is up next. When things always change at the lower budget level productions you just have to ask, or you end up having everyone waiting on you (which is a bigger sign of a noob IMO). When you get enough experience on professional(union) sets you learn how to read whats going on by watching and listening to the set. This is why the sound department rarely use walkies and are often the first to know what is going on. This is how we do great work and no one even notices by staying ahead of the game and anticipating problems and setups before they happen. Now I'm not going to say productions hasn't surprised me before, it happens, but most of the time we stay pretty well ahead, if we don't sound will suffer. We are able to use that intel to get great spots on the set figure out how to mic people find issues or noise makers then record a great scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Reilly Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Hayter Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 When you get enough experience on professional(union) sets you learn how to read whats going on by watching and listening to the set. This is why the sound department rarely use walkies and are often the first to know what is going on. This is how we do great work and no one even notices by staying ahead of the game and anticipating problems and setups before they happen. Now I'm not going to say productions hasn't surprised me before, it happens, but most of the time we stay pretty well ahead, if we don't sound will suffer. We are able to use that intel to get great spots on the set figure out how to mic people find issues or noise makers then record a great scene. +1 On all levels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 When you get enough experience on professional(union) sets you learn how to read whats going on by watching and listening to the set. This is why the sound department rarely use walkies and are often the first to know what is going on. This is how we do great work and no one even notices by staying ahead of the game and anticipating problems and setups before they happen. Now I'm not going to say productions hasn't surprised me before, it happens, but most of the time we stay pretty well ahead, if we don't sound will suffer. We are able to use that intel to get great spots on the set figure out how to mic people find issues or noise makers then record a great scene. I'm not that green!!!! Lol. I have done exactly that many of times to the point I've had producers, directors walk me to the side to tell me how awesome of a job I'm doing, BUT..... at times, I've been on crews that you could not apply that experience to, because it's that unorganized. I'd rather ask after wiring up talent only to find out they decided to shoot something else instead....wardrobe change....wires off.... blah blah wasted time, etc....etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Timan Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Neophytes also have a bad habit of saying the entire scene & take number, which I don't believe is necessary -- it just wastes data. "Marker" is all they need to say, unless it's multi-cam, in which case they can say "A Camera mark," and the other AC says, "B Camera mark." I don't know what they're teaching in film schools these days, but some of these traditions have just gone out the window in recent years. The 2nd AC calling out the scene and take info isn't a neophyte thing, but an east coast tradition vs. west coast tradition thing, as I understand it. I fail to see where this hurts. If the argument is "wasted data", how much data is exactly being wasted in the 1 second it takes the AC to say, "Scene 26 take 1", for something that doesn't even end up in the dailies product? This argument gets even more questionable when one considers the "keep rolling" mentality of most of today's shoots, where one will often roll for 15 minutes to get three passes at a 2 minute scene and continue to roll through crew and director/actor discussions, lighting adjustments etc. Given how much data is "wasted" in that scenario, the 2 seconds of calling out scene and take seem like a pretty minor expenditure. As you undoubtedly know from your time doing dailies, any audible slate from the mixer that happens before the slate will end up on the floor in the finished product of the distributed dailies. (So, for that matter, will too the audible slate called by the AC -- the dailies generally will start at the clap of the boards, right?) In my usual workflow I call the audible slate AFTER the clap and in this way it will end up in the dailies to reference the scene and take. With the visual slate it's often not necessary, but it adds a backup the process to cover illegible slates, misslates, and written slate info out of frame (all of which happen sometimes). It certainly makes it easier to do that, however, if I can simply repeat what the second AC has just said, rather than go independently ask the script supervisor every time what he/she wants to call something (when the second AC is doing that anyway). .02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 " an east coast tradition vs. west coast tradition thing, " well, also on lo-budget shoots with one-person sound dept's, and/or no slate mic capability... (that sounds familiar... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdog Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 i hate being told when a shot is MOS, especially by crew members who know nothing about sound or post sound. honestly, no shot should be MOS. if you don't want the audio in post, mute/delete it. but at least it should be there for reference or you never know, you might actually be able to use it. +3985673!!!!!! CAPTURE IT!!!! CAPTURE IT!!!!! CAPTURE IT!!!!!! G@D D@^(%() CAPTURE IT!!!!! IF THERE IS ANY MOTION, THERE IS A HIGH POSSIBILITY OF SOUND! CAPTURE IT!!!!! (You might be able to guess that I feel rather strongly about this). I can almost hear the director (or whatever noob made the, "this should be MOS", comment) thinking: "Well there isn't any dialog happening in this shot, so there must not be any sound." Aaaargh!! About 90% of the time, the more subtle the sound is, the more important and potentially useful it is. Man you can do good stuff in post with natural, synchronized scuffles, scrapes, sniffles, clothes rustles, car drive bys, bird flaps, footsteps etc. Sure you "CAN" build everything with Foley. But to choose Foley as your first choice before evaluating the natural sound? Use it or don't. But CAPTURE IT! And no, now that you've just spent 2 hours finding your frame and resetting lights, it's not going to cost you more than a few seconds of your precious production time to add sound to the shot. And no, just because there is no dialog doesn't mean, "we don't need a slate on this one". Subtle, natural sound without dialog is exactly where you need the slate snap the most. You can train chimpanzees to sync sound that has dialog. But the weaker and more subtle the natural sync events are (scuffles, sniffles, rustles, scrapes), the more you need that sync snap. And now that I've raved, I'll concede in one case: If you are shooting an insert of an inanimate object that has absolutely no chance of moving or making any sound, I'll be the first to say, "Let's do this one MOS", for you. Oh, O.K. and maybe one more case: If I really trust that the director has done some post before and knows ahead of time exactly how he plans to edit the shot with sound and that he knows for certain that he absolutely will not use the natural sound, then I'm cool with MOS. Oh, O.K. One more case: It's the sixteenth hour of a sixteen hour day and I'm tired and tired of arguing and missing sound on this last shot means I can start packing up sound and going home. Go ahead and just do this one MOS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 The 2nd AC calling out the scene and take info isn't a neophyte thing, but an east coast tradition vs. west coast tradition thing, as I understand it. I fail to see where this hurts. If the argument is "wasted data", how much data is exactly being wasted in the 1 second it takes the AC to say, "Scene 26 take 1", for something that doesn't even end up in the dailies product? This argument gets even more questionable when one considers the "keep rolling" mentality of most of today's shoots, where one will often roll for 15 minutes to get three passes at a 2 minute scene and continue to roll through crew and director/actor discussions, lighting adjustments etc. Given how much data is "wasted" in that scenario, the 2 seconds of calling out scene and take seem like a pretty minor expenditure. As you undoubtedly know from your time doing dailies, any audible slate from the mixer that happens before the slate will end up on the floor in the finished product of the distributed dailies. (So, for that matter, will too the audible slate called by the AC -- the dailies generally will start at the clap of the boards, right?) In my usual workflow I call the audible slate AFTER the clap and in this way it will end up in the dailies to reference the scene and take. With the visual slate it's often not necessary, but it adds a backup the process to cover illegible slates, misslates, and written slate info out of frame (all of which happen sometimes). It certainly makes it easier to do that, however, if I can simply repeat what the second AC has just said, rather than go independently ask the script supervisor every time what he/she wants to call something (when the second AC is doing that anyway). .02 I kinda like the idea of doing the audible ID after the slate clap -- just curious though... has it ever caused a problem in terms of laying over the head of a take? I'm just thinking of the possibility when a take calls for quick sticks / quick action... I know it's probably more of an exception if anything, but I've always been reluctant to say anything after the slate clap. ~tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 " after the slate clap " that pregnant pause provides excellent ambiance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 " after the slate clap " that pregnant pause provides excellent ambiance That too... depending on how "controlled" the set is (some sets are insanely noisy right up until the Director calls action)... not just newbies either -- experienced technicians simply losing their respect for the craft / process... ...brings up another issue as to ambience / roomtone -- not sure if it really even needs to be said though... I'm sure we're all in agreement as to how "challenging" it can be getting anything useable -- and it's not always directly proportionate to the collective experience level of the crew (above and below the line)... I think it again speaks to a growing lack of pride / respect (including self respect - in all departments) for what we do. Sigh... get what you can, and can what you get, right? ~tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfisk Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 I haven't done nearly the amount of the production work you all have, but when I did I was working on a mocap session for a game, and at the start of the very first day, all of us department heads gathered around to discuss how we would start and stop each take. We were at a very experienced mocap facility, so those guys were great, but the game people didn't have any production experience, so I said "at the start of each take you need to say "roll sound" and then "roll camera"...really loudly. We will let you know when we are ready by saying "sound speed" and "camera speed". Once we say that, you are good to go. Well, they were doing rehearsals, and didn't let anyone know that they were actually going for a take, so the mocap operators and I just sat by and watched them do a "take" with no data being captured. They turn to us and say "did we get it?". To which the main mocap operator says "no". The director goes "but why, that was a great take!". The mocap operator says "you never told us to roll, so we didn't. We never yelled "camera speed" or "sound speed", so that should have clued you in that we weren't rolling". Luckily I didn't have to get involved in that one. On the post side of things, whenever I would show a rough cut of my sound edit to the director/producer/whoever I would tell them "now this isn't mixed, so the levels are a little all over the place right now", and I would get the inevitable "make this thing louder", or "make that thing quieter". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmahaAudio Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 " i don't want my name going on some project and the sound was crap " then put a canard on your deal memo... Put a duck on a deal memo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 ... Dare say I think this bridge I never much liked anyway is burnt. Better burnt than to trust it and crash through to the chasm below. Put a duck on a deal memo? It beats the Subway tuna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Reilly Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 "You can train chimpanzees to sync sound that has dialog." Don't give them any ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 Tries to record an interview on a Zoom H4n in 4 channel mode on an SD card that's only class 4 and ends up with tons of write errors. ...That was me today My compliments, Scott. A person who admits their mistakes will learn much quicker than someone who just tells you how much they know. Every mistake or problem is a learning experience (and, like many, I've learned more than I'm willing to admit--so kudos to you). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 My compliments, Scott. A person who admits their mistakes will learn much quicker than someone who just tells you how much they know. Every mistake or problem is a learning experience (and, like many, I've learned more than I'm willing to admit--so kudos to you). It is only a mistake if you do it again. Otherwise it was a learning experience. A painful one at that. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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