How to Spot a Rookie at 100 Paces

[Max Futterman]

It is only a mistake if you do it again. Otherwise it was a learning experience. A painful one at that.

CrewC

Experience is that thing you get after you need it.

[Marc Wielage]

I fail to see where this hurts. If the argument is "wasted data", how much data is exactly being wasted in the 1 second it takes the AC to say, "Scene 26 take 1", for something that doesn't even end up in the dailies product?

Waste is waste. What may seem like 1 second to you is in reality :10 seconds on the set, between waiting for the AC to get into position, call out the numbers, and clap it. Just clapping is less than half that time. 5 seconds times 100 takes a day... it adds up, especially across multiple cameras. I merely suggest this because to me, it makes sense, and I'm come from an old school film mentality. (And I also hate it when data cards fill up unexpectedly, causing a scene to shut down... the high-tech version of a roll-out.)

As you undoubtedly know from your time doing dailies, any audible slate from the mixer that happens before the slate will end up on the floor in the finished product of the distributed dailies. (So, for that matter, will too the audible slate called by the AC -- the dailies generally will start at the clap of the boards, right?)

Yes, but the audible slate on the sound roll is still very necessary, especially when dailies people (like assistant editors) are desperately looking for a missing take. This can happen when the camera loses timecode and reverts to hour zero, or the camera misses the slate entirely, or the sound rolls late, or any number of problems. The sound slate is especially important for wild lines, room tone, and effects that don't have an accompanying picture.

To me, as long as the post crew agrees with your accepted practice, it doesn't matter. There's many ways to skin this cat; I mention it only because this is the method I've seen on about 85% of the pictures I've worked on in the past 30 years. YMMV.

[Marc Wielage]

About 90% of the time, the more subtle the sound is, the more important and potentially useful it is. Man you can do good stuff in post with natural, synchronized scuffles, scrapes, sniffles, clothes rustles, car drive bys, bird flaps, footsteps etc. Sure you "CAN" build everything with Foley. But to choose Foley as your first choice before evaluating the natural sound? Use it or don't. But CAPTURE IT!

Absolutely. In traditional dailies, we would sometimes make an effort to sorta/kinda sync up wild tracks with picture, just to have something there. This was particularly useful for, say, slo-mo shots of explosions, car crashes, stuff like that. The sound would be out of sync, but at least at the key moment of impact, you'd hear something.

My observation is that the post sup and editor always appreciates more options, including rolling during MOS takes. Usually, I'll just call out "WILD SOUND" when they do an MOS take, if it's something I suspect they can actually use. (As opposed to, say, somebody picking up a bottle or reading a newspaper.)

[Noah Timan]

I kinda like the idea of doing the audible ID after the slate clap -- just curious though... has it ever caused a problem in terms of laying over the head of a take? I'm just thinking of the possibility when a take calls for quick sticks / quick action... I know it's probably more of an exception if anything, but I've always been reluctant to say anything after the slate clap.

Nah, never been an issue. On the rare occasion that a director or AD calls "action" that quickly after the clap I simply just don't do the audible slate for that take. After all, the audible slate isn't that critical -- unlike in the 1/4" tape 'n' film days we are beyond redundant now in labeling. The scene and take info is all over the place -- in the filename (unless Zaxcom or Cantar recorder), in the metadata, on the visual slate, and here again on the audible slate, plus on many jobs (such as my current show) the script notes are generated by ScriptE software which also has a TC reference. If one of the many labeling elements fail (such as the audible) there is certainly more than one backup. However, when it's possible, having an audible slate in the dailies provides a quick confirmation that saves an assistant editor having to go back and cross reference notes/filenames/etc.

The only fair argument that I can think of for NOT doing it is the one that the Senator notes -- traditionally, the moment after the clap but before "SET" or "ACTION" is a great place to pull room tone from, since everyone is actually quiet on set at that moment generally. However, in years of doing it I haven't heard any complaints -- and that's on many projects where I'm talking to post regularly as we're going -- so I think it's OK.

[Noah Timan]

Waste is waste. What may seem like 1 second to you is in reality :10 seconds on the set, between waiting for the AC to get into position, call out the numbers, and clap it.

Well, the AC is still going to have to get into position and clap it, not to mention find the frame, etc etc...even if s/he doesn't call out scene and take all that time is still spent. I really don't see the calling of "28A take 1", even a hundred times a day, being the time suck that causes roll outs or days or telecine sessions to be extended. Maybe there are some sets so disciplined that the time it takes to say "67 baker take 2" is really notable, but I'm certainly not on one of them at the moment and really strain to think of any that I've ever been on. Some are better than others, but in HD world (or at least the segment of the HD world I am currently living in) the idea of data frugality and efficiency is, shall we say, not exactly at the top of the priority list, and even if it was, far more time is expended with cameras and sound rolling on far less potentially useful material.

Yes, but the audible slate on the sound roll is still very necessary, especially when dailies people (like assistant editors) are desperately looking for a missing take.

Then why not double up and let the AC call it as well as the mixer?

To me, as long as the post crew agrees with your accepted practice, it doesn't matter. There's many ways to skin this cat; I mention it only because this is the method I've seen on about 85% of the pictures I've worked on in the past 30 years. YMMV.

This is all true, but IMHO it is worth considering reasons for doing things beyond "this is the way we've always done it", to see if we can progress and improve from the way we've always done it...

.02

[sdog]

O.K. One more. I've been giving rookie directors a hard time, but now... I've been trying really hard to blot out of my memory this embarrassing part of my deep dark past:

As a noob, I did a crap load of interiors with full zeppelin and dead cat (oh the shame), wondering why it was so hard to get a good position and stay out of frame before the very, very obvious occurred to me: a.) There's not a lot of wind in a kitchen and b.) There actually IS time to change set ups between interior and exterior shots.

Every once in a while I'll look at an old behind-the-scenes photo of me holding up this monster mic on an interior and just cringe to know there's such a record of my foolishness.

I can't believe I'm actually posting this on a public website. Maybe we can look back on this someday and laugh.

[stevegrider]

I am a little old school when it comes to the "roll sound" and "speed" protocols. If you follow this simple procedure, it not only verifies that all departments are recording, but it informs the entire crew that we are getting down to business. It also gets the talent into character, you can see them get their game face on when they hear "slate in". Why not do it when it works to the benefit of all?

[John Blankenship]

It's a matter of the rhythm. If the traditional cadence works, don't change it. If something better works, there's reason to change it. The key is to be consistent and make sure that everyone on set is on board with how the shots will be started.

I was on an independent film that seemed to be too cumbersome getting shots started. I worked with the producer/director and DP to come up with a streamlined cadence that worked for everyone and moved things along nicely. In that case, it helped the production. In some other situations, I wouldn't dream of proposing any changes.

On a commercial this past week, the DP/Director started speeding things up by not calling any sound calls at all. The most warning I had was, "slate in." Sometimes, all I had was, "mark it."

A pre-roll buffer is a wonderful thing and allowed me to refrain from needing a conference. As long as I stayed awake and aware, I was fine. Go with the flow. I've worked with this company before and will work with them again. They're a good team and part of my job is to fit into that team -- not dictate how they do things. If I feel their methods are impacting the quality of the production (or, perhaps my sanity), it's my duty to say something. Otherwise, I just enjoy the freedom that a generous pre-roll buffer gives me.

[bmjord]

Whenever I look into a mirror there's always the same rookie staring right back, no matter how good I begin to think I am.

+1

[Eric Berzins]

Every once in a while I'll look at an old behind-the-scenes photo of me holding up this monster mic on an interior and just cringe to know there's such a record of my foolishness.

I can't believe I'm actually posting this on a public website. Maybe we can look back on this someday and laugh.

Don't feel bad, I have some of those. I knew I didn't need the blimp, but it was when I first got the CS-3e...I didn't care for the high end and actually liked the slight attenuation from the windshield. Eventually, I realized this was stupid -- the high end on the CS-3e sounds fine, it added extra length to the mic, I was adding unnecessary weight to the end of my pole, and it all resulted in stupid pictures of me booming an interior w/ a full blimp.

[Marc Wielage]

I was on an independent film that seemed to be too cumbersome getting shots started. I worked with the producer/director and DP to come up with a streamlined cadence that worked for everyone and moved things along nicely.

Yep, that's my thinking. Again, if you can save 5 seconds, even 10 seconds from the head of a shot, and you do 100 shots a day, could be 1000 seconds -- 16 minutes. That's more than a full data card, well over 1000 feet of film. Add that up across multiple cameras... it's a lot. I just think "A camera mark," "B camera mark," gets into it a lot faster with minimal waste of time and footage. The amount of data is so minimal for audio, it's not a consideration there, assuming you've done a quick head slate.

Eventually, I realized this was stupid -- the high end on the CS-3e sounds fine, it added extra length to the mic, I was adding unnecessary weight to the end of my pole, and it all resulted in stupid pictures of me booming an interior w/ a full blimp.

Eh, as a famous senator once said: "Experience comes from bad judgement!"

My slight modification of that is, "I try never to make the same mistake twice." (I make newer, more interesting mistakes instead.)

One stupid newbie mistake I'll reveal: trying to use RG79 cable to extend the antennas on Lectro UHF receivers about 50'. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why it was such a struggle... and after the shoot (a 4-week indie feature), then I found out about high frequency loss and RG-8 cable. Doh... I should've known, because years ago, I experienced similar loss with TV UHF signals with a roof antenna, and went to 300-ohm low-loss cable. Live and learn.

[sdog]

It's a matter of the rhythm.

+1

All other factors accounting for time wasted on cadence become negligible when you look at rhythm. A full traditional call sequence that everyone understands and that flows in rhythm will waste far less time than an abbreviated system born of confusion and chaos. Far more seconds are wasted when camera and sound are wondering if it's really time to roll or if the director is just taking a breath before his next blocking command or lighting command. Or when slate is wondering whether to approach or stay out of frame.

This is not to disagree with the observations of Marc or John that a well thought out call sequence abbreviation can add significant productive time to day. It is only to point out the importance that the abbreviation must be purposeful, bone simple, clear to everyone, and followed rhythmically in order to work. If it is abbreviated only because one link in the chain neglects to remember their role in the call sequence, any seconds saved by the abbreviation will be immediately lost in the confusion.

I'm working with a director right now who cannot remember the first words to the call sequence, "roll sound". He is extremely sharp, a very good guy, and he's not negligent in any way, but for whatever brain-glitching reason, he can't remember those specific words when he's ready to shoot. I watched him try at the beginning of the production. I suspect like many similar creative types, his brain is so full of 7692 other considerations at that particular moment that he just doesn't have room in there for those words.

It took a long time to get this production into rhythm, but we are now rolling along (relatively) smoothly and rhythmically based less on a strict call sequence and more on a shared system of anticipation and body language.

[sdog]

My slight modification of that is, "I try never to make the same mistake twice." (I make newer, more interesting mistakes instead.)

beautiful philosophy!!!

[johnpaul215]

The 2nd AC calling out the scene and take info isn't a neophyte thing, but an east coast tradition vs. west coast tradition thing, as I understand it.

I've also been told it's an East vs west thing. In 2012 even the cheapest production can afford the few seconds of time it takes to say "scene 23C take 3". I would think even the most out of shape camera departments can spare the words.

I encourage it because it might help post. I could also save a bunch of time and bytes of data by not doing sound reports, but that would generate some frowny faces. I could save precious time by not getting room tone too. I have had the same idiot DPs tell me "we don't need to waste time rolling room tone anymore because they make it in post" (). Going back to my previous grumbling example of the camera department keeping slate changes a secret, it's a redundancy for the scene/take to be called out. Much like clapping a slate at all on HD shoots.

[johnpaul215]

I guess it's a different level of projects. The chaos on the films I work on leads to tons of wasted time. My pre-roll is wasting way more time than calling scene/take, but I seem to work with ADs that sometimes forget to call roll sound. I have also worked with ADs that say roll sound and nothing will happen for 90 seconds. I've worked on films with the editor on site syncing audio and doing rough assemblies. On a few projects he started keep track of how long I was rolling before "action" was called and 90 seconds was not unusual. I started rolling when it was called, not when I got a desire to hit the big red button. I was still using the Fostex PD-6 at the time, so cutting and restarting takes a bit of time (not like a Deva or 788T). I usually had to keep it rolling and wasting space on those precious little DVD-Ram discs (1.4GB per side). I would make a note on the sound report at what point action was called, but jeeze. Frustrating.

[studiomprd]

" as a famous senator once said "

Goog judgment comes from experience, experience comes from poor judgment

" the first words to the call sequence, "

'picture is up...quiet on the set...lock it up... on the bell...' etc come first!

[John Blankenship]

I was on an independent film that seemed to be too cumbersome getting shots started. I worked with the producer/director and DP to come up with a streamlined cadence that worked for everyone and moved things along nicely. In that case, it helped the production. In some other situations, I wouldn't dream of proposing any changes.

Yep, that's my thinking. Again, if you can save 5 seconds, even 10 seconds from the head of a shot, and you do 100 shots a day, could be 1000 seconds -- 16 minutes. That's more than a full data card, well over 1000 feet of film. Add that up across multiple cameras... it's a lot. I just think "A camera mark," "B camera mark," gets into it a lot faster with minimal waste of time and footage. The amount of data is so minimal for audio, it's not a consideration there, assuming you've done a quick head slate.

Ironically (where this discussion is concerned) one of the things we kept was the AC calling the scene and take number. It was helpful.

I'm in the camp that likes the AC calling it since I'm on a lot of sets where communication doesn't always make it to the sound department in time for me to be prepared with the correct scene and take number. Some of the directors I work with (especially on commercials) are unusually creative when it comes to scene numbers, occasionally emcompassing several descriptive words, which they sometimes only decide at the last second.

...And, I'm closer to the east coast than the west. <g>

[Philip Perkins]

One way to avoid some of the unpleasantness described above is to ask the AD/ACs/even the director and DP how they want to deal w/ slates, rolls, cuts etc beforehand. At least it allows them to think about how they want to work before we get into any hassles. Many people I work with now like to work as the mocap people described above do--not because they are newbies but because that's what they like. I'm ok with it if they let me know that's what they want before we start.

phil p

[Denielle]

Big agreements for the dropping the slate, and loud clapping... definitely pet peeves of mine. My slate is only half broken (the backlight periodically goes out), so I couldn't really have production replace it... and I wasn't even sure which production did the damage. I would have preferred a 40ft drop, because at least I'd have a leg to stand on.

Sharpies don't bother me... but, one camera department (and an experienced on) used some transparent tape for the production title, etc. After a month of being on slate it did not want to be removed. It took lot of goo gone and scraping... and way too much of a pain. From now on... white tape or marker. I'd rather deal with a Sharpie any day.)

Snapping and blowing into the mic... talking to me when I have my headphones on. SHHH! Man, I don't like that sound. I would rather hear people talking in the background during a take than hear someone going around with their SHHH! Nothing penetrates a scene like that noise. And, the angry PA. Hmphh.

I am still guilty of leaving my lav accessories and bags around on occasion. But, I also can't carry a purse because I will lose it. I can't tell you how many times I have had to return to restaurants to reclaim my things. So, I blame my own mental defect on that one...

I have to say, I am a big believer that if you are recording to the recorder, call the scene. If for some reason they lose logs, and they often lose logs... they need to know which files match up. Hearing 'marker' on the reference feed is not going to help them with file number 900, and they are trying to figure out where it goes. The rookie move is rolling camera and sound together and then calling the scene. I have worked with a number of ADs and ACs who know the drill is: roll sound - call the scene, roll camera - marker.

My biggest rookie mistake was lighting... it took me a little while to figure out the angles of lights and how to work around them. Those were stressful days.... because I knew I was the rookie.

[Denielle]

Totally agree with the not calling roll sound. It really irritates me. And, I have tried the I didn't know we were rolling line... and had it not work! My psychic abilities have gotten much better over the years. I also really get aggravated by the not calling cut. Almost more so... With pre-roll, and being attentive on set... often you can get to the record button on time. But, if they don't call cut and suddenly the slate is in frame, sometimes it takes a second for you to cut and re-roll, and in those cases you lost your pre-roll. So, you have to do second sticks... Or, you cut because everyone is talking and they start to run the scene again and you have to yell out "I cut!" Ugh!! Some habits are worth sticking to. I am a robot when I hear those commands... roll and cut. But, when they are absent... I really feel sloppy.

Tail sticks bother me... because 98% of the time, it never happens. Unless it is absolutely necessary, I really find this to be an annoying habit of some ADs.

A really good one is an ultra low budget move, when the AC is off somewhere with the slate, so they decide to snap in front of the microphone while the camera is pointed somewhere else. Sometimes I am tempted not to explain that one... because explaining it seems almost as cruel as not explaining it.

[Denielle]

What's up with the AD calling roll sound when no one is ready? I have had many ADs admit... I am trying to get everyone to settle... meanwhile I have ten minutes of pre-roll. Ultimately, I have to not roll when I hear 'roll sound', and break out those psychic powers again. But, it isn't fair to sound department, and particularly the boom op to be standing there ready to go while the rest of the crew is still working... and actors are off in crafty.

[Marc Wielage]

One way to avoid some of the unpleasantness described above is to ask the AD/ACs/even the director and DP how they want to deal w/ slates, rolls, cuts etc beforehand.

Absolutely.

Bottom line, the most important thing they need to call is my name to book the job and get my paycheck!

I do prefer the system the senator stated above: "quiet on the set, roll sound," bell rings, sound mixer hit record and does head slate, AD or boom op calls "sound speed," AD or director calls "roll camera," "A camera mark," and off we go. Heck, these days I'm glad to hear somebody yell cut! But I have had brief discussions with neophyte directors and said, "hey, we can save about 5-10 seconds by eliminating the audible head slate on camera," and usually I can make my case. I have no problem if they want to disagree -- it's their project, not mine, and not my decision to make. I can work with damn near anything (and will gladly take the Subway Tuna if the pay rate is reasonable).

I agree with Denielle: way, way too many sets where the AD calls for sound to roll when it's obvious nobody is ready. I had to learn from painful experience not to roll on some sets until I see the slate actually in frame, and then have a :10 second preroll.

I also agree on tail slates. I think my #1 beef in about 30 years of post was the camera department cutting before the tail slate clapped. I'm hesitant to name the picture, but I worked on a recent $20 million picture where I swear, half the movie was synced-up totally by eye because of missed slates. No claps, totally by listening and watching. You get very, very good at lip-reading in the post bidness. I was gratified to learn that most of Woodstock was done the same way in 1969.

[sdog]

" the first words to the call sequence, "

'picture is up...quiet on the set...lock it up... on the bell...' etc come first!

Hey! I'm sound. Those words aren't important to me. I use the time during those calls as an opportunity to text my friends and chat up the actors.

[sdog]

Tail sticks bother me... because 98% of the time, it never happens.

Aargh. Everyone forgets. Camera, me, AD... I just finished a shoot that was tail slate city. The director was trying to find some very delicate frames with a handheld style and didn't want the DP to lose frame once he found it by moving to the slate and there often wasn't room to move the slate into frame. Once he found frame he just wanted to get the shot, so he wound up calling tail slate most of the time. I can completely understand the necessity of a tail slate in these circumstances - this film is going to have some really cool shots in it - but I still hate it. We forgot to slate way too often and wound up with way too many shots with no sync mark or ID.

[Noah Timan]

In our current workflow, our post house syncs camera TC to sound TC, and the slates are just a 'plan B' if something goes south on either my or camera's end with code. Our transfer house vastly prefers this method and says it's a lot faster and more efficient than traditional syncing. While I don't know for sure, I'd harbor a guess that this method will eventually replace slating as the primary sync method in most cases, and thus push all these slating issues towards obsolescence for many of us.