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Unrealistic Expectations on Set


BAB414

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Dude... I'd make sure that check was CASHED before giving them the files, and run like hell. Other than putting a lav on Mom, it sounds seriously like these people think that a single camera / single microphone will be just fine for getting the magic to happen.

All of us know better. Anyone that has done more than one project knows better. My guess is, they bought (or got gifted) that 5D for Christmas, and have just figured out how to do something with it... And they are thinking that b/c it shoots movies, that makes them obvious choices for the next Oscars.

David has some good advice, as do the others who are suggesting that these people listen to playbacks so they know what they are getting. The danger I see in that, is that it could be deep fried crap, but they won't know it, and think it sounds amazing anyway. The distant sound of the kids, ambient room noise, etc... All that will sound "so natural" to those with a tin ear.

That might not be a bad thing, in that it will give you a chance to experiment on their money (and get every penny you can, "change batteries" often for a little extra padding) but you need to consider this:

Money from a gig is very transient. Your reputation is forever.

I haven't had a gig that appeared as much a smoking crater as this one, but if I did... I think I would pack out and leave as soon as it became obvious. The damage of not recording (or delivering) pure garbage and walking out will be MUCH LESS than actually letting unknown people hear your sub-par work. I did have one film that damaged some of my gear they had rented from me. Twice. The second time, I exercised my contract and pulled the gear. They threatened me with telling everyone about _MY_ poor behavior. Not only have I not lost any sleep over it, but I haven't lost any work either. Turns out, everyone who worked on that project has been saying that I was the only one to stand up for myself amidst a clueless leader.

Good luck. You will need it.

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OK, if we are going to actually do this, and if there is a budget, then the set (room) could be specifically designed for this sort of thing, there are actually rooms that are used for such video-ing and audio recording, often for research purposes. these facilities have either stealth (PZM-11), or even visible choir/conference mic's hanging from the ceiling, (nobody looks up) and "mirrors" (one way glass) on wall(s). Of course there is a lot of post work required.

Of course, if this were the case, then the folks doing the project would understand what they are doing, what is involved in doing it, and have some idea of the costs and other issues involved.

These folks just have unreasonable, and unreaslistic expectations!

Edited by studiomprd
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Without seeing a script or, at least, a plan for the production (if such a thing exists), it's not possible to know what expectations are. Perhaps the film will be told largely through narration like "Days of Heaven" or "Badlands." You might, possibly, fulfill all expectations by providing a good wireless track of the mother and picking up occasional tidbits from the children. I think that wiring her with a second pack on her back so you have mikes in the room in two directions is a good plan.

Explain to the people making the film that their requirements severely restrict what you can do to give them a clean track. Ask them to listen carefully to the results from the first one or two days so they can evaluate results. Agree to talk after that. It may be that they are very happy with the results you can get. Or, they may take that opportunity to revise their thinking. If they are unhappy with the results and expect you to repeal laws of physics, you can then politely withdraw.

David

I agree with David's take on this. There's a lot we don't know about their expectations.

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Nice find from Albert Einstein (Albert Brook's real -- perhaps, I should say, original -- name).

And his "Super" brother David Einstein, or as you might know him, Super Dave Osborne, or if you're my age Officer Judy from the 'Smothers Brother's Comedy Hour.'

I did know that you worked on "Real Life," CrewC and I've always loved the show, which is a parody of the PBS documentary, 'The Loud Family.'

RVD

There's another Eistein brother that produces commercials, can't remember his name though. Worked with him years ago and he was just as funny as his sib's.

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Nice find from Albert Einstein (Albert Brook's real -- perhaps, I should say, original -- name).

And his "Super" brother David Einstein, or as you might know him, Super Dave Osborne, or if you're my age Officer Judy from the 'Smothers Brother's Comedy Hour.'

I did know that you worked on "Real Life," CrewC and I've always loved the show, which is a parody of the PBS documentary, 'The Loud Family.'

RVD

Not only did I record it w Michael C Moore, I'm in it as a skinny mover rolling Alberts round bed into his bedroom. You can see by that scene I was meant to be behind the camera, not in front.

CrewC

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UPDATE:

Hey everyone, thanks so much for your advice and support. After reading your numerous helpful responses, i pressed the AD to talk to the producers and the director and explain that their production sound is in danger. The AD sent me this in an email:

"I spoke with [Director] about planted mics not cutting it and she has opened up to both having the boom in the room and having people upstairs and is kind of warming up to having people actually in the room. We'll see how it goes Monday."

While not the best response, this is something. Definitely a little more hopeful than before.

I spoke to him again today, and it will be only one camera, no lights, the DP is a close family friend who have known the kids (ages 5 and 8 ) all their lives and they feel completely comfortable around him. It still seems that she wants the kids to be in the dark about us making a movie (which still boggles my mind), but we'll be doing a "test" next week to see if this is really feasible or not (and I'm hoping she and the producers will see that things need to change).

If I can't be in the room, I'm definitely laving the mom, putting a mic on the camera, and I'll try talking the director into having a prop that I can rig a lav into as some of you have suggested, putting some of the responsibility on her. If I can also put a boom up on a c-stand and know the general area the kids are going to be in (i.e. if it's a dinner scene) I might throw a cardioid up there, or hand something from the ceiling.

Right now, it sounds like she wants me upstairs, which means, depending on how many mics I have playing, I'll need several hundred feet of cable, due to the layout of the house. I'll try to be downstairs in another room, but if I do end up being upstairs, is there anything I need to know about long cable runs? I've never run more than 50 feet of cable for a mic before.

Also, I'm running on a 552, so I have a decent number of inputs, but as of right now I don't know what I'll do about track assignment. I don't imagine anyone can help (yet) since there's really not enough info yet, but I'll keep you guys updated of course.

In the event that this all goes wrong and she's not having what I'm doing, I think getting out of the gig is definitely the right thing to do. I don't care about the money. What attracted me about the job in the first place (and I reluctantly admit this) is that the woman's husband is a successful filmmaker, and her producer is a family friend who has produced her husband's films for a while now. I agree that generally, quitting a job will hurt me less in the long run than recording bad sound for an entire film, but I fear that backing out of the job could really upset this producer, who could potentially open some doors for me.

According to the AD, this producer understands my concerns, and, as some of you suggested, this lady, who has made a couple of shorts in the past, doesn't know what she's doing or what good sound is supposed to sound like. I have a feeling the producer knows this, and just wants to see what happens on our "test" day with the kids. However, after being on set for 2 days now, it definitely does not feel like a "real" movie. Everyone is a lot more lax about everything than I am, running around trying to be a "professional" as the DP said, and I'm beginning to wonder if sub-par audio is all they are really asking for. Today, for example, we shot behind a stupidly noisy factory/construction site. There was no location scout I knew about, but the producer said last time they were there, they weren't having those sound problems. I told him they probably have to ADR/foley the scene and he seemed to understand.

I'll keep you updated on what happens next with the kids. Thanks for the advice, and thanks for listening!

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I think a multitrack recorder is going to be your friend on this, like the tascam dr680 running out of your iso's on your 552. Especially if you're going to be mixing blind unscripted.

This recorder is super cheap. Will it deliver on quality and functionality? Any users?

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There are significant problems you can expect from running a signal over 100 feet, especially if it's a mic signal. Do a search right here on JWsound for a detailed explanation from some folks with more expertise than me. You need to be near the set, that should be non-negotiable. Otherwise, you will have to go up and down stairs every time there's a problem.

BTW, if the kids aren't supposed to know they are being filmed, won't they notice all the cable you're running? Might need to be wireless.

You know what? Nevermind. Just quit. This is for the birds!

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I just figured it out - You are shooting something along the lines of SUPERNANNY - Which is also a show where the kids are completely unscripted and can't really know they are being filmed.

If I am correct about this, you can relax a LOT. Lav the mom with wireless, and get one or two Crown PCC-160 mics and see if you can set them up as a wireless plant. They would be better directly connected to your mixer, so you can boost the heck out of them, but they are GREAT boundary mics, and will give you lots to work with.

The thing to remember (or watch an episode of Supernanny if you have never seen it so you can know) is that the sound from the kids on that show was DREADFUL... But that wasn't the point. They lav'd the parents, I'm sure they planted the room... And called it done b/c there wasn't really much else they could do. If anyone here has worked on or has direct knowledge of exactly what they did on that show, PLEASE fill me in, b/c I'm only making informed guesses... But it fits the logic.

You can't be upstairs tho, for exactly the reasons stated. You need to be a lot closer, like the next room or a closet somewhere.

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I have several 30 meter (approx. 100 feet) canare quadstar leads that I have rarely had an issue with. On a couple of shows I have been on we would regularly run/join three or four 30 meter leads. You need to follow the usual rules, use good quality cable, avoid running parallel with power leads and balasts etc. Oh and make sure you run them the right way, it can be hard to plug two male xlr's in together. That was one of my rookie mistakes.

All that said, being upstairs sounds like a pain.

How are you going to know when to roll? Or are you expected to roll the entire time, which would make for a very tiring day.

Anyhows have fun with it.

Cheers Nate.

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I love the concept " put a mic on the camera" , which will be close (maybe), and somehow that WONT freak out the kids, Camera looking straight down their eyeballs, but a mic will freak them out...

Also, we run 100 foot mic lines all the time.... and longer.... And, you can sit in the front yard with antennas pointing upstairs banging through the walll, do it all the time... or downstairs and point up through the celieng... or run radios up there if you must and snake back, 20 ways to do this, no you don't HAVE to be anywhere close... Roll when you hear roll sound through the mic, or a walkie...

There has been some good ideas here on how to mic things...

Remember, you did NOT create the puzzle, you can only do with what you can in the perimiters of that puzzle that THEY created for you... It is not YOUR movie it is theirs, be clear, tell them what IS possible and attack.... or as has also been mentioned, know when to say when, this part of being a sound person will save years onto the end of your life.... It is not easy to do, but knowing when to bow out is a helpful tool in your bag just as a nice mic is...

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