Philip Perkins Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I did some days with a runaround crew with the Panasonic AF100, which we tried to keep in TC sync with my rig. As someone mentioned, you have to read the manual carefully, since the process is somewhat counter-intuitive, but after a few syncs is was easy enough. It takes some getting used to the idea that the TC input is labelled as the composite video output (and that it only works as a one-time jam when the camera isn't rolling) and that the connector is an RCA female, but after that the setting was not buried too deep in menu-world. The camera loses its jam after any battery or frame rate change, so you have to be observant, but having to rejam fairly often meant that the sync stayed pretty accurate. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 Thanks for that, Philip. I've worked with the AF100 but haven't jammed it. Good info to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Visser Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 The DP I worked with knew what he was doing and all I had to do was hand him a cable, which was nice. I liked the camera, small and compact, and with most lenses it seemed that pulling focus was easy for a 1-man shooter on a reality gig, which was the application for which they were being used. Next time, though, I have to pay more attention to the metering and not assume I was hitting a -20dBfs mark - for my calibration ended up being a lot hotter than I thought, meaning at the end of the day, I first realized my mix was nearing or hitting the camera's peak. Does this camera have a limiter? Regardless, the client was happy, it was just a sizzle tape and ended up getting hired for the season 1 shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I wasn't crazy about how the camera sounded, ok I guess. We were all wireless hop so I was pretty insistent on the record/jam thing. The pix are fine--I think it kind of sucks as a handheld camera (too boxy, or needing of extra fiddly bits that take time), but I think that about nearly all the new breed for cameras these days. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I don't have time to research it right now, but IIRC, on the AF100 the mark on the level scale is -12dB, not -20 as we usually like to see. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Feeley Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I don't have time to research it right now, but IIRC, on the AF100 the mark on the level scale is -12dB, not -20 as we usually like to see. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. I worked with the AF100 once, so I have the manual I downloaded. You're right: -12dB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Visser Posted March 23, 2012 Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 I don't have time to research it right now, but IIRC, on the AF100 the mark on the level scale is -12dB, not -20 as we usually like to see. Please, correct me if I'm wrong. That seems about right, I lined up my 0 dBU to their -12dBfs, thinking it was -20, and generally like to peak around +4 sometimes letting it slip to +8 on my meters for more exuberant stuff, which would have been right at the clipping threshold. At least the editor can't complain about low levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bendybones Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 I'll be on a shoot with a AF101 tomorrow so I have been googling for any audio peculiarities. Not much to find, so I'm glad I found this! I will set my tone to output +8dBu and line up to just below -12 on the camera. Or I'll just set my tone to output at +6dBu if I have that option. Thanks Edit: I meant to say +10dBu if poss (not +6, wrong direction) Turns out +8 is as high as my 552 will output tone, so I'll go with that and line up just below the camera's -12 mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Buncher Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 I also have a shoot with an AF100 tomorrow. First time with that camera for me so this is timely information. Thanks. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syncsound Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 One other thing: an early firmware version allowed the AF100 to display active audio meters and return audio through the headphone jack, WHILE NOT ACTUALLY RECORDING THE AUDIO. If the camera (with the early firmware) is engaged in "VFR" mode, it will stop recording audio, but not indicate that it has stopped in any way. Apparently, you can engage the "VFR" mode by pressing a button on the side of the camera. I'd run a BU recording as well as verifying that the firmware has been updated recently. See this link for more details: http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=5571 And, yes, I did find out about this the hard way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bendybones Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 One other thing: an early firmware version allowed the AF100 to display active audio meters and return audio through the headphone jack, WHILE NOT ACTUALLY RECORDING THE AUDIO. If the camera (with the early firmware) is engaged in "VFR" mode, it will stop recording audio, but not indicate that it has stopped in any way. Apparently, you can engage the "VFR" mode by pressing a button on the side of the camera. I'd run a BU recording as well as verifying that the firmware has been updated recently. See this link for more details: http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=5571 And, yes, I did find out about this the hard way. Wow! Whoever made that firmware needs a slap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bendybones Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 Oh, and yeah the AF101 was super noisy! Not sure if it was the return or the inputs. I was outputting line level so the cam's pre-s weren't doing a whole lot, you'd think. Hopefully it was just a noisy headphone out on the 101. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 One other thing: an early firmware version allowed the AF100 to display active audio meters and return audio through the headphone jack, WHILE NOT ACTUALLY RECORDING THE AUDIO. That's nothing new. All cameras do that. How else would you set up the audio to the camera? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted August 18, 2012 Report Share Posted August 18, 2012 The Red Epic will also allow you to monitor an audio signal when it's recording at high speed (36fps, 48fps, 120fps, etc.), but is not actually recording sound in this mode, which makes sense. There is a move afoot to have them kill the sound monitoring in this mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bendybones Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 The Red Epic will also allow you to monitor an audio signal when it's recording at high speed (36fps, 48fps, 120fps, etc.), but is not actually recording sound in this mode, which makes sense. There is a move afoot to have them kill the sound monitoring in this mode. This is fair enough. Even if no one tells me, puts it on the board, or calls it (which has happened), I still stand a chance of overhearing mention of a higher frame rate, and would not expect audio to go down at cam. However, showing audio meters, and supplying return audio, when there is no way for the camera to record audio is misleading and unnecessary. But maybe that's just how my head works. Either way, I'll continue my usual system of always rolling a BU and supplementing it with rolling a test take on cam and checking the audio on playback. Glad to be finding this out the easy way, thanks syncsound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bendybones Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 From syncsound's link above The firmware update addresses this to some degree. Now' date=' there is a red slash over the A.REC icon on the LCD monitor. The meters still show audio and the headphone out still works.[/quote'] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael McQueen Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 "The firmware update addresses this to some degree. Now, there is a red slash over the A.REC icon on the LCD monitor. The meters still show audio and the headphone out still works." From syncsound's link above honestly to me, thats still not good enough. with the hvx/hpx when you changed framerates it would kill levels and audio. that little slash through A.rec icon still doesn't tell a well informed user much. i've heard camera guys complain time and time again about having cameras thrown on them last minute that they are unfamiliar with so whats to say a frustrated DP won't inquire what that icon is on your shoot while you've been sending primary audio to camera all day… and is it a soundie's responsibility to know what all the icons on a camera's LCD mean? A couple of local friends own af100's and luckily i've always been on top of this problem with the camera so i've kept them in the know with it but i've had some out of town friends that have been completely burned by this camera. Panasonic dropped the ball on this camera. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bendybones Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 honestly to me, thats still not good enough. with the hvx/hpx when you changed framerates it would kill levels and audio. that little slash through A.rec icon still doesn't tell a well informed user much. i've heard camera guys complain time and time again about having cameras thrown on them last minute that they are unfamiliar with so whats to say a frustrated DP won't inquire what that icon is on your shoot while you've been sending primary audio to camera all day… and is it a soundie's responsibility to know what all the icons on a camera's LCD mean? A couple of local friends own af100's and luckily i've always been on top of this problem with the camera so i've kept them in the know with it but i've had some out of town friends that have been completely burned by this camera. Panasonic dropped the ball on this camera. exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Lewis Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 Just spent 12 weeks on a show with interviews shot on the AF100. TC: The Composite video output is your timecode connection, it is a jam once device as it does not send or receive continuous timecode. Best way is TOD jammed from your recorder. Jamming is a process done through the menu, and the clock holds to the 788 very well. Re-Jamming should be done after any power down process. AUDIO inputs: 2 XLR, I fed line level into the camera setting tone at 8 white notches on the screen, or -20dbu. Yes the WHITE HASH is -12, just like many of the other prosumer Panny cameras. I ran my levels hot on the 788 as per normal and got good results. I ran to at -20 because I was also mixing to a Panasonic HDX900 for a second angle so I preferred matching reference levels on the cameras. I have never liked setting tone at -12, it limits the dynamic range and i run levels hot anyway. All in all pretty simple camera to work with. I have found that Panasonic cameras hold free run CODE better than Sony's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syncsound Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 That's nothing new. All cameras do that. How else would you set up the audio to the camera? Eric Yes, but it will do this at normal (i.e. 29.97 and 23.976) framerates. Even though you were in the "Variable Frame Rate" mode, you would still be at standard speed rates, which one would reasonably assume would be capable of recording audio. That's where I and other mixers got burned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 Every camera has something that will burn you. Every camera operator can flip switches that will burn you. In the grand scheme of things, a habit of frequently checking and re-checking is the only thing that will save you. That, and good backups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syncsound Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 Every camera has something that will burn you. Every camera operator can flip switches that will burn you. In the grand scheme of things, a habit of frequently checking and re-checking is the only thing that will save you. That, and good backups. Indeed. I've been caught once before on a wireless hop gig, and learned the lesson hard that time. No one saw this coming. The only way we figured it out was googling the problem after the fact. Even re-checking wouldn't have helped in this very specific instance. It had to be this particular camera, and this woefully out-of-date firmware. A perfect storm of technicrapola. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 19, 2012 Report Share Posted August 19, 2012 " i've heard camera guys complain time and time again about having cameras thrown on them last minute that they are unfamiliar with " THAT is a problem... it is just like showing up for a job and being given an equipment package you do not have experience with and do not know how to use... " and is it a soundie's responsibility to know what all the icons on a camera's LCD mean? " while I say it is not our job, as it is not our toy, many of us take pride in being well prepared to properly assist... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 A perfect storm of technicrapola. Ah, that would be another perfect T-shirt slogan! I've had several days like that... After that stupid 5D incident that happened to me, I'm never again going to not take my little netbook computer that has about 250 manuals on it. At least then, I could look up that camera and say, "ah, we need this jack over there." Granted, the camera operator should know this stuff, but my philosophy is, anything I can do to get this show on the road is positive. I'm not there to put blame on somebody or start an argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheisticmystic Posted August 23, 2012 Report Share Posted August 23, 2012 Did a simple sit down interview with a colleague's production company recently, recording single-system to the AF100 plus back-up. Monitoring the camera from my breakaway cable's return, it seemed there was a slight delay (although sounding fine). I thought I was JW Professional-grade reading up on the camera manual and posts here, yet missed an additional menu setting: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/archive/index.php/t-241555.html Best, Steven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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