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Red Epic/ SB3 Question


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Buenos Morning!

On set with 2 Epics this AM and have a question about jamming:

Last week I jammed these same two cameras (at that time were 3.00 and 2.79 I believe, today both at 3.00), from an SB-3 that was jammed by my 744t at free run 23.976. That week I used cam dept's BNC cable out of the SB-3 into the Epic synch jack via lemo 4 pin. When the Epic wouldnt jam immediately, Cam Op uses his "trick" of unplugging lemo from sych jack, plugs into control jack, then back into synch jack and Epic then jams.

We test, DIT gives a thumbs up, and post has no synch difficulties.

This week, new Cam Op says he doesnt like old Cam Ops method, feels the issue is with the SB-3 (also theirs), and asks that I go from the SB-3 JAM IN into the Epic synch jack and indeed, the Epic synchs and then slate, 744T, and both Epics are now in sync.

Is this even a problem if both methods provide workflow tested results, and has anyone encountered this, or can explain whats happening.

My noobrain hurts.

Best,

Steven

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I'm curious too.

Doing Epic shoot next week. My last shoot with Epic had SB2 on cameras. I had nothing to do with it. Next week has no lockit box. Will jam from my slate.

I have done RED ONE shoots jamming only. Curious about experiences here with jamming only on the Epic.

Robert

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One a two camera Epic shoot now.. The cameras have the latest builds in them. I use two SB-3 sync boxes riding on the camera all day (Jam at Start and Lunch) B cam has the Red provided 3 bnc to lemo cable, A cam has a separate sync cable so Cam Op can plug his toys into control port. Camera dept protested that they didn't want the Syncboxes riding on the camera. The Epic body is quite small, I had post supervisor and line producer step in to tell them otherwise. Early part of the shoot, Post reported random sync problem. Turned out to be a bug in the Redcine-X software in relation to two Red clips referencing a single multitrack wav file. It would sometimes cause the timecode to be off by up to 10 frames. They downloaded a previous build of Redcine-X and problem went away. I don't trust the Epic's ability to hold sync so stand firm and insist the sync boxes ride that train.. The Arri camera is a different story.. One other thing, they have a setting turned on that sends out display information such as timecode, TC (confirming camera is locked to external timecode) and my favorite thing... Then they are in record the letters turn Red, when stopped they turn white.. Don't have to wait for no one to not yell cut now!!! Happy camper..

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Thanks Mark,

B Cam has been a pill, but the Epic is cooperating now for no other apparent reason than that it was the third attempt/test.

They dont want the SB3 on the cam now, but that might change on the next shoot.

The larger production coordinator for the company is asking for recommendations for their kit; Ill be sure to push for an additional SB3 and "rider" protocol. If post has difficulty after the shoot, I may have a more timely and persuasive argument.

Best

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What's interesting to me is a vast majority of Camera AC's and DP's I have worked with have never and I mean NEVER done any work in post. They may have a buddy that runs FCP or AVID but have never struggled to edit a project where the camera dept disregarded sync as not there problem, but don't want to help resolve the issue. I have to say, it was very gratifying to have the 1'st AC have to come back to my cart and ask for the sync box after a gentle statement from the DP who also happens to be directing..

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On this shoot, theyve only looked at the high-speed footage they shot, saw that picture and sound have merged accurately via TC, and haven't begun editing the interviews that were also shooting. As the interviews are roughly 30 minutes, I wonder if they'll get away without any drift.

Thanks for everyone's input, Ill post back if I hear from post.

Best

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What's interesting to me is a vast majority of Camera AC's and DP's I have worked with have never and I mean NEVER done any work in post. They may have a buddy that runs FCP or AVID but have never struggled to edit a project where the camera dept disregarded sync as not there problem, but don't want to help resolve the issue.

"Resolve the issue." A post joke.

1sm052bangwall.gif

I don't think the SB-3 or SB-T's are that different in terms of stability (Charlie Parra could say for sure), but I lean towards using the SB-T, even though it's more expensive. If you have two or more cameras, I've been told about 50 times from post engineers that they gotta use genlock and timecode due to potential timecode phase issues. This will result in occasional "1-frame early / 1-frame late" issues. I know of a major 3D horror project that had this because no genlock was used between two Red cameras -- and this was no fault of the camera -- resulting in about $100,000' worth of post fixes. Two $20 cables would've solved that problem on the set.

Camera dept protested that they didn't want the Syncboxes riding on the camera.

I have heard Ted Schilowitz from the Red Camera company usually advises to use them at the Red "Reducation" seminars. (949) 206-7900. My usual strategy is to try to work this out the day before the shoot, and have this argument before we're actually on the set. Get the editor and/or producer on-board to use the sync and/or timecode box because it's a necessary evil. If the crew still balks, I'd try to remain calm and say, "no problem, as long as you'll take full responsibility for the timecode."

One call to any reputable post house would silence the crew's objections. Note that you can shoot with completely wild (non-matching) sound & picture code, as long as it's contiguous (non-overlapping) and avoids Hour 0. I have done "film-style" shoots where the editor agrees to sync all the sound just using the timecode slate and the clap. That works, too, as long as they don't mind the extra editorial labor and delays.

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Earlier this month I did two projects for the same client.

Used Epic with build 3, and sent ref audio to channel 1 with a G2 and an A-Box.

TC jammed to Camera from my Zax Fusion at each battery change (used a long BNC from my Lemo to BNC TC cable)...

Spoke with editor, and they found this to be stable.

One of the projects transcoded the R3D to Pro Res for an FCP edit prior to syncing my poly .wav files

I do not know if they used Plural Eyes, my TC, or the waveform to sync the tracks.

I do know they had a very short turnaround for all of post, and were happy with this sync method.

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For a film-style workflow, jamming the Epic seems to be fine, provided the camera department takes on this responsibility. Doing that now. They only have short zoom and little control monitor on the camera. The small form factor is nice. Adding stuff to the body seems unnecessary.

Next step up is an SB-3 or Lockit (TC only). I don't see minor drift issues to be that big of a deal, really, unless the whole thing plays in one shot with no editing. For most circumstances this is fine. But honestly, since the pre-made 3-BNC to mini Lemo, or Lemo to mini Lemo, is the standard, why not go all out with the SB-T or trilevel from Lockit, if you have those.

The idea of 3D without genlocking the cameras seems to be madness!! And with all the crap strapped to the camera for 3D, why not do it right?

The best part about this camera is when it misbehaves, you can say "Epic fail!"

Robert

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For me: Epic gets Trilevel (genlock) and TC from an ext box like SBT, or they sign in blood that any sync issues don't spill on me. I'm mostly doing pretty long rolls (up to 45 min sometimes) so the sync drift thing has real teeth.

phil p

+1 for the importance of genlock for long rolls. On shoots where takes are shorter (generally under 10 minutes for me) just tc is fine, but I still insist on the use of a sync box if I am asked to be responsible for camera / sound sync, which is the norm for me.

http://wanderingear.net

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