Max Futterman Posted April 10, 2012 Report Posted April 10, 2012 Stumbled upon this with some creative Googling. I like how 24bit seemed futuristic and the pre-record buffer was an amazing killer feature. Also what the hell is "the new Sony dubbing format, specifically for use with the new 20-bit Sony digital dubber?" http://www.amps.net/...e23/23_deva.htm I copied the text below: Twickenham Studios, Sunday 21st September saw an audience of over 50 for a presentation by Glen Sanders of Zaxcom, of his company's portable 4-channel digital audio hard disk recorder. Because this was considered an important event, an invitation was extended to the IBS and BKSTS membership to attend, and it was good to see some IBS members who contributed important points to the discussions. The meeting kicked off with Roger Clemo of UK representatives Harris introducing the team who will be supporting the Deva. He also added a few words about their company - that it is part of the Studio Products Division of the Harris Corporation whose group turnover last year was $3.8 billion. They are based in Cambridge. Glen Sanders of Zaxcom then took over and made a thorough and illuminating demonstration of the Deva's features, capabilities - now, and in the near and far futures. He kicked off by plugging his microphone into the Deva's mic amp and announcing that he was going to do the entire presentation through this unit so that if it made any unpleasant noise over the next two hours, we'd all hear it. He turned the mic gain up till feedback so that we could all 'hear' the low noise. Zaxcom was formed in 1986 and has specialised in digital audio and video products. Products such as the DMX1000 mixer are in use worldwide including the UK. The company is just 14 people and it was suggested that because of this efficiency they were able to keep a very competitive price structure on their products. Many of the audience were familiar with the concept of the machine from article in the newsletter, so it was the additional points made that were most interesting. Firstly the removable hard disk is airtight, shock and dust resistant. He estimated a current cost of the disk to be around $500 although this would probably come down to $400. Their experience had shown that a big movie would require around 10 disks but following user feedback had decided to offer alternative possibilities. In a static situation it will be possible to record onto the internal HD and an external Jaz drive at the same time. In mobile situations, the recording world be made on the HD and copied to the Jaz. This should increase the convenience of the system - writing to the Jaz in their own MARF format (specifically tailored Mobile Audio Recording Format), WAV format and the new Sony dubbing format, specifically for use with the new 20-bit Sony digital dubber. Many were impressed by the demo of the Deva's 10 second prerecord - it's always storing audio in a buffer when turned on. Glen pressed Record, and then Stop, and immediately played back the ten seconds of his talk prior to having pressed Record! He went on to demonstrate the resistance to shock and vibration. The HD is rated at 125g in play and 200g when stationary and so is not likely to be damaged itself but the writing or replay may be affected by vibration - it uses a 20 seconds buffer memory to store audio in until the vibration stops, and then writes it to disk. To show this he violently shook the machine in replay, and there were no detectable errors audible. He also played back some material he had recorded in Trafalgar Square the previous day with the unit just slung over his shoulder. Not demonstrated but the unit has the ability to print out a take list if attached to a printer. The ease with which you can access takes was impressive. It is also impossible to record over material without executing a specific key sequence. So if you are in the middle of playing back a take and there is the need to record immediately, just hitting the Record button enters that mode, clear of any existing material. It is possible to set up up to 100 cue points for playback. Not all facilities are currently implemented - insert record and compression/limiting was due within the next few weeks. Battery life was touched on and it was mentioned that Nickel Hydride batteries had been found to extend life by half an hour, up to nearly 3 hours. The unit still keeps timecode values with the power off. Provision for a 24-bit future was discussed. The unit runs at 20-bit now (disk 24-bit ready) but the converters, mic amps are designed to to be upgradable at a later date should 24-bit or even 96kHz sampling become a reality. Also larger HD drives are possible in the future upping record time to 4 hours. The PCMCIA socket adds further possibilities beyond the Jaz drive connection, such as working directly with workstations and modems. Fairlight have already incorporated the MARF format in the MFX system and Zaxcom are in talks with others. Questions came thick and fast: How robust was the disk? Glen took the HD out of the Deva, explained that they had added there own protection on top of the basic, banged it forceably on the table and put it back in the Deva. He said that he didn't know what more could be done. How long to change the disk? About 10 secs Able to record new EBU standardised broadcast WAV format? Not yet but will investigate what it is and if wanted will implement it. There are no limits on number of formats that can be added. How much? About $10.5k in the US and approx 7.5k in the UK, in the form demonstrated. Can the disk be turned off to save power? No not as yet - but this may be added in future. What about cost of disks versus DAT tape? Disks will cost more - they're doing Jaz drive interface first but also has a SCSI interface and so could plug in MO, CDR, DAT data tape etc. Will be able to record on other media, enabling you you to get the media cost down to the budget, Is it radio mic proof? Yes, it's EU approved. Questions and closer examination continued until the meeting closed at 1.15, with the demo machines shown departing with some of the audience who had managed to borrow them for closer examination. Thanks to Zaxcom and Twickenham Studios for a most interesting meeting. Quote
Jeff Wexler Posted April 10, 2012 Report Posted April 10, 2012 "Also what the hell is "the new Sony dubbing format, specifically for use with the new 20-bit Sony digital dubber?" " Sony Pictures built what was being called a Digital Dubber that served a similar function as some other units already in various studios, units built by Akai and Tascam (and a few others, I have forgotten), to replace mag film dubbers. The traditional methods for dubbing (final re-recording and mixing on the dub stage) employed magnetic film players (dubbers), primarily from Magna-Tech (with a few other manufacturers building similar units). The Digital Dubbers would store the tracks on various forms of digital media/storage and were able to "play out" the audio on command, providing as well non-linear access not possible with conventional analog magnetic linear film machines. The Sony units were designed around Jaz disks from Iomega and this is where the reference, although not very clear and somewhat inaccurate, comes in. The very first use of the Deva I (which I had) really did not have any way of getting the data out of the machine except to play it out in a linear fashion from the Deva, or remove the hard drive and place it in another Deva to make the transfer. When the SCSI port was implemented, the Deva was able to mirror (or copy) the contents of the internal hard drive to an external drive. The first drives we used were Jaz drives. Sony built about 20 of their Digital Dubbers, encountered many of the problems that everyone had experienced with Jaz drives and media, and all the units were abandoned. The very small group of original Deva users had already abandoned Jaz, had moved on to several other technologies (notably Orb disks which were considerably cheaper than Jaz but had their own special failure characteristics) and ultimately settling on DVD-RAM disks. As for the Digital Dubbers, several studios continued to use the Akai units and the newer Tascam MMR-8 and MMR-16 with the majority of studios settling in on the Tascam units (which completely replaced all of the traditional mag dubbers). The Tascam units continued to be operational until the time at which the studios began to mix movies using ProTools rigs either in the machine room or on the dub stage. I have abbreviated a lot of this history (and also may have gotten some things wrong) but you get the idea. Quote
Jeff Wexler Posted April 10, 2012 Report Posted April 10, 2012 Adding to this, there is a write up from a page on the AMPS site that describes the Sony Digital Dubber You can read about it HERE. Even though they did partner with Iomega to produce "certified" Jaz disks and drives, the format was still plagued with failures. Quote
John Blankenship Posted April 10, 2012 Report Posted April 10, 2012 History is cool. The more you know about where you came from, the more you know about where you are and where you're going. That's true for people, for societies, and also for the gear we use. Some time ago, I saw a Deva I (now pretty rare, I think), on eBay and Glenn was surprised there remained one floating about. I own a Deva II (which is still a viable, and dependable, machine today), and a Deva V (and now, also a Nomad), and find their legacy interesting, like the stuff mentioned above that Glenn and crew started to implement but then found a better way, with people like Jeff leading the charge by implementing the ground-breaking technology on the front lines. As much as I like the Deva V, I wouldn't bat an eye at still using the Deva II (although, I'd miss the touchscreen) -- that's how far ahead of their time Zaxcom was (and still is, with Nomad as an example). About the Jaz disks -- they were basically an amalgam of a floppy disk and a hard drive, and although they were kind of cool for a while, eventually, they revealed they carried the drawbacks of both formats, rather than just best of both as Iomega had hoped. Quote
studiomprd Posted April 10, 2012 Report Posted April 10, 2012 " Is it radio mic proof? " how times have changed... Quote
Marc Wielage Posted April 11, 2012 Report Posted April 11, 2012 I'll say this: for all of the Iomega Jaz drive's problems (which were many), it was a lot better than a lot of its competitors, like the infamous "Orb Drive" used in the original Nagra digital recorder. Not good. The Orb was built by some former engineers from Syquest, and I think legal and financial problems did the company in after a few years. Nagra made the huge mistake of using the Orb drive in their original Nagra V, which (as far as I know) never worked very well. In fairness to them, I think the machine was fine; it was only the removeable hard drive that was a disaster. They eventually got it right with the Nagra VI. The key I think for Zaxcom was that Glenn quickly realized that the key for film use was to be able to simultaneously mirror the file to low-cost DVD-RAM disks (and later CF cards), using those for delivery. That was a terrific idea that still works to this day. Quote
ProSound Posted April 11, 2012 Report Posted April 11, 2012 I'll say this: for all of the Iomega Jaz drive's problems (which were many), it was a lot better than a lot of its competitors, like the infamous "Orb Drive" used in the original Nagra digital recorder. Not good. +1 the Orb was the worst method of data storage I have ever encountered on more then one occasion I had massive data loss on a orb for no reason. There were also very expensive. Quote
Jeff Wexler Posted April 11, 2012 Report Posted April 11, 2012 I had conversations with people at Nagra since they knew I had been experimenting with Orb disk, I had to sign confidentiality agreements and all that stuff, and I gave them my opinion based on my personal experience. They assured me that the Nagra would not have any of these difficulties since they had made arrangements with Castlewood Systems to produce "certified" drive mechanisms/transports and certified disks for use in the Nagra. I didn't buy it but they went ahead and released the first non-linear file based full sized Nagra with the Orb disk being the only storage medium. To their credit, I think they knew it might fail, and the hardware construction of the drive bay had been designed to accept a hard drive instead of the Orb drive. Quote
Derek H Posted April 11, 2012 Report Posted April 11, 2012 What is the date of the article? When was the first Deva released? Quote
John Blankenship Posted April 11, 2012 Report Posted April 11, 2012 What is the date of the article? When was the first Deva released? The article referenced was in their Autumn 1997 newsletter. Quote
Jeff Wexler Posted April 11, 2012 Report Posted April 11, 2012 My first use of the Deva I on a feature film was "The Siege" in the beginning of 1998. On that movie we were cycling the internal (but removable) Deva hard drive. Soundelux had a Deva connected to their normal transfer channel and they put my hard drive in that Deva and played out the audio to Magna-Tech for 35mm mag transfer. Quote
John Blankenship Posted April 11, 2012 Report Posted April 11, 2012 Jeff, if you don't mind saying, what were your transition points to your succeeding Devas? II IV 5.8 (If memory serves, that's what you're on now, or is it a 16?) You're one of the few who's been there for the whole ride. Are you planning to get a Nomad? Quote
Jeff Wexler Posted April 11, 2012 Report Posted April 11, 2012 I don't remember the exact dates for Devas. I do know that the Deva I became the Deva II as a factory upgrade, various changes to the original design. The Deva I was not really around very long --- most of us consider the Deva II as the first Deva. I will look back to see when I got the Deva IV. The Deva IV really retired the Deva II which then just sat in a case on the truck. I might have run both the Deva II and the Deva IV on the cart for a brief period of time. I got the Deva 5.8 from Wayne Brissette who sold it to me used (but beautifully taken care of) and it is the 5.8 that I use as my main machine now. I'm not so sure I am going to get a Nomad at this point. I think it is an incredible machine with certain features and capabilities that even surpass those of my Devas, but I have to start being careful what I purchase (reminds me of the other thread, "when to buy") since realistically I am on the tail end of my long career. As long as I can continue to get the work done with the two Devas, I probably won't be buying another recorder. Quote
John Blankenship Posted April 11, 2012 Report Posted April 11, 2012 Having both the Deva V and a Nomad, the Deva V is definitely my preferred machine for cart work. Where the Nomad could be handy for narrative is to have a separate, really compact, insert car rig. Since I do both cart and bag work, and sometimes need double system "on the go," the Nomad made a lot of sense in my case (plus, of course, it's a really fun toy). It's a mixer with full recording and time code capabilities and it'll handle more wireless channels than my previous bag mixer rig. The first time I used the Nomad was as a cart backup to the Deva V and my main reaction from that gig was, "I'm really glad I have the Deva!" It's not that the Nomad wouldn't work fine on a cart (just like a Deva can work in a bag), it's just that the Deva is optimized for cart use, whereas the Nomad is optimized for bag use. For cart use I figure that the Nomad will serve as a Zaxnet controller as well as a backup recorder except when I need it rigged and ready for insert work. Early on I had wondered if the Nomad would affect Deva (or Fusion) sales much, but, after using both, I think the two machines complement each other nicely. Quote
Marc Wielage Posted April 12, 2012 Report Posted April 12, 2012 Correct. The Deva III was announced but never shipped. Announced at AES in October of 2003: Zaxcom's three new hard disk recorders — Deva III, IV and V — range from a 6-track model designed for basic recording to a 10-track model designed for multitrack, high-bit-rate applications. Key features: an internal 5.25-inch DVD/CD writer option, intuitive color touchscreen, new Zaxcom audio file called .ZAX, and an extremely powerful internal mixer and user interface. List: Deva III, $8,950; Deva IV, $9,950; Deva V, $12,950. I think customer demand was so great for the Deva IV, Glenn opted to leave the III on the drawing board, which made sense. Wow, it's amazing it's been 9 years since that announcement. Also just discovered this blast from the past, the original Deva II brochure from early 2001, which I've attached as a PDF. Very nostalgic to look back on how far the industry has come since then. Zaxcom Deva II brochure (2001).pdf Quote
Boomboom Posted April 12, 2012 Report Posted April 12, 2012 So, the NeverClip function was already on the Deva iI, was then pushed aside for a time, then brought back as a feature on the Nomad ? Quote
soundslikejustin Posted April 12, 2012 Report Posted April 12, 2012 So, the NeverClip function was already on the Deva iI, was then pushed aside for a time, then brought back as a feature on the Nomad ? Very different tech, same name. Quote
Jeff Wexler Posted April 12, 2012 Report Posted April 12, 2012 I found this to be curious also... I had forgotten that the term "Never-Clip" had already been used in the past. Justin is right, however, same name but totally different approach and technology developed for Nomad. Quote
Glen Trew Posted April 12, 2012 Report Posted April 12, 2012 Correct. The Deva III was announced but never shipped. Announced at AES in October of 2003: Zaxcom's three new hard disk recorders — Deva III, IV and V — range from a 6-track model designed for basic recording to a 10-track model designed for multitrack, high-bit-rate applications. Key features: an internal 5.25-inch DVD/CD writer option, intuitive color touchscreen, new Zaxcom audio file called .ZAX, and an extremely powerful internal mixer and user interface. List: Deva III, $8,950; Deva IV, $9,950; Deva V, $12,950. I think customer demand was so great for the Deva IV, Glenn opted to leave the III on the drawing board, which made sense. Wow, it's amazing it's been 9 years since that announcement. Also just discovered this blast from the past, the original Deva II brochure from early 2001, which I've attached as a PDF. Very nostalgic to look back on how far the industry has come since then. The Deva III was later to be released again, with a transmitter inside and an antenna on the side, and called the Fusion, which was also tabled. The current Fusion is a very different machine than the original Fusion. "NeverClip" was also mentioned as a feature of some Zaxcom wireless. What the difference is between then and now, I don't know. gt Quote
Philip Perkins Posted April 12, 2012 Report Posted April 12, 2012 The Deva III was later to be released again, with a transmitter inside and an antenna on the side, and called the Fusion, which was also tabled. The current Fusion is a very different machine than the original Fusion. "NeverClip" was also mentioned as a feature of some Zaxcom wireless. What the difference is between then and now, I don't know. gt I had wondered what happened to the Fusion with the TX/RX (cam hop stuff) built-in. It was an interesting idea.... phil p Quote
studiomprd Posted April 12, 2012 Report Posted April 12, 2012 " customer demand was so great for the Deva IV, Glenn opted to leave the III on the drawing board, " I wonder if the Deva III would have been a "crippled Deva IV" ? Quote
Jeff Wexler Posted April 12, 2012 Report Posted April 12, 2012 I wonder what crippled the man with the hat. Quote
Bash Posted April 12, 2012 Report Posted April 12, 2012 what the Twickenham Studios article missed was that I left that demo with a Deva 1 in my hands, and have had Devas as my main recorders ever since!!!!! Incidentally, I kept the demo Deva 1 until mine was delivered, and a week later Zax announced Deva 2. Fortunately mine was upgraded for free!!! Kindest regards, Simon B Quote
Marc Wielage Posted April 13, 2012 Report Posted April 13, 2012 Does anybody have a photo of the original Deva I? That's one I never saw. Quote
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