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Recording Theatre Play


edmelvins

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Hi guys,

I'm doing a gig on May 8th in a theater here in SF. They're basically going to film the whole thing (pre-show) and my job is of course to record the sound. It's not a high profile type of event where the sound has to be really good, but of course I'd like it to be.

My main concern is I only have a 302 hooked up to 702. That gives me 3 channels to play with.

Setup 1:

- CS3e in front of the stage (a bit farther back) to capture direct projection from the actors while not recording audience's whispers, etc.

- NTG-3 on the side of the stage because one of the actors is going to be performing a monologue there.

- AT4053b next to the CS3e to capture the entire thing.

I'm thinking about mixing CS3e and NTG-3 together while recording AT4053b to a separate track.

Setup 2:

- 3x Sm57 in front and the sides of the stage. But I'm afraid the 57 won't be able to reach that far even though they'll be located right in front of the stage.

I also have two pairs of G3s with EMWs which may be of use.

Given the equipment and circumstances, what would you guys do?

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Congrats on the gig! What kind/size of stage is this? Is the show going to be all situated on the stage, or part of in the aisles or other areas of the venue with performers singing?

You technically have 6 channels to work with (302's return 4+5 all summed into L-702, and a separate R-702). Or 4 channels to work with (302 into L-702, and R-702 iso).

Certainly don't discourage the idea of using 3x SM57 across the lip of the stage, you'll need to really crank them up. LCR config.

Any chance of hanging your AT4053a from the ceiling over the lip of the stage?

Is the entire cast being mic'd and run into a sound system? You could possibly take a feed from the board ONLY if the mix engineer allows it. This would be your main timeline of the show (L-trk of 702) with 3/4/5 more sound sources to capture and mixed down from your 302 to R-trk of 702.

Send out Output's 1 L+R to one of the cam's input for ref.

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I do a lot of these.

If you can ahead of time, find out if the actors are mic'd but be aware on some shows they only use them for musical numbers!

If not, get a feed out of the FOH desk for SFX anyway.

Use 3 or 4 PCC mics spread across the lip of the stage, these are low profile mics that look like a pzm and do a great job in this situation, check with the house tech as they may have some you can use. Sanken cubs may do the trick but PCC's have great reach. You can use lavs taped down to act as a PZM in the same manner in a pinch but ride the faders otherwise it can sound a bit too "open".

more info on the mics here

Regards,

Grant.

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Guess its all down to using what you have on hand, or can borrow from a mate.

I am recording a play that a mate of mine is directing next month. Eight cast with lots of samurai / ninja fight sequences. After nailing down the wardrobe changes I've decided to radio mic all the cast and supplement with FX mics (for the sword and pole fights). I'm lucky to own enough gear to do this and ISO record to to a 788 and 744 sending a mix to the cameras for the edit.

If you kit is more limited I would consider spaced short shotgun mics. Depending on the size of the stage maybe three.....

Really important to try and see a performance before the record date so you can make considered decisions.

Jet us know how you go

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As others have said, a lot of this depends on the width of the stage, type of prouction, etc. I've recorded plays using a variety of methods: a single Soundfield, a spaced pair of wide carioids, a Mid/Side pair, Crown/Amcron/Bartlett PCC-type boundary mics (http://www.bartlettmics.com/index.html), Crown GLMs on the lip of the forestage, etc., etc. All have their advantages and disadvantages, but there's no one best way. I'm not sure that the CS3 will be much use, unless all the action is blocked to the centre of the stage. I've watched crews do B-roll recordings for news programs using a short boom, but that's with no audience in the theatre and they tend to move around a bit. Similarly, the AT4053b is a hypercardioid, so not great for wide pick-up.

I'd go for three begged/borrowed/rented PCCs (the Bartletts are quieter and nicer than the Crowns) across the stage front and the special in the wings.

Regards,

John

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Congrats on the gig! What kind/size of stage is this? Is the show going to be all situated on the stage, or part of in the aisles or other areas of the venue with performers singing?

You technically have 6 channels to work with (302's return 4+5 all summed into L-702, and a separate R-702). Or 4 channels to work with (302 into L-702, and R-702 iso).

Certainly don't discourage the idea of using 3x SM57 across the lip of the stage, you'll need to really crank them up. LCR config.

Any chance of hanging your AT4053a from the ceiling over the lip of the stage?

Is the entire cast being mic'd and run into a sound system? You could possibly take a feed from the board ONLY if the mix engineer allows it. This would be your main timeline of the show (L-trk of 702) with 3/4/5 more sound sources to capture and mixed down from your 302 to R-trk of 702.

Send out Output's 1 L+R to one of the cam's input for ref.

It's a pretty big stage with little room acoustics so it's quite echo-y. Yes it's all going to be situated on the staged but there's one small part where the actors are going to come down the stage so that's why I wanted to have the boom a bit far back.

Do you really think that the SM57 would be good for this? I was thinking about mixing the 3 of them to one track and have a boom on the side to cover the monologue and have that go to the other track.

There won't be a sound system because it's a traditional play where the actors have to project their voices as far as they can.

If I were to use 6 channels on my setup, then I'd have to find a dual XLR to 3.5mm input for channel 4&5 is that correct?

I do a lot of these.

If you can ahead of time, find out if the actors are mic'd but be aware on some shows they only use them for musical numbers!

If not, get a feed out of the FOH desk for SFX anyway.

Use 3 or 4 PCC mics spread across the lip of the stage, these are low profile mics that look like a pzm and do a great job in this situation, check with the house tech as they may have some you can use. Sanken cubs may do the trick but PCC's have great reach. You can use lavs taped down to act as a PZM in the same manner in a pinch but ride the faders otherwise it can sound a bit too "open".

more info on the mics here

Regards,

Grant.

I was thinking of doing that but it would take an effort to try to rent them as I'd have to get them from LA. Maybe I'll buy a couple of those but for now I'll mess around with the three SM57 and see if they can deliver. Thanks for the suggestions!

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Do you really think that the SM57 would be good for this? I was thinking about mixing the 3 of them to one track and have a boom on the side to cover the monologue and have that go to the other track.

There won't be a sound system because it's a traditional play where the actors have to project their voices as far as they can.

If I were to use 6 channels on my setup, then I'd have to find a dual XLR to 3.5mm input for channel 4&5 is that correct?

Yup, SM57's are able to do this despite many sound folks in all industries disagree, all you need to do is crank it up on your 302. Use your ears.

The 3.5mm returns are not phantom powered thus you'll be feeding it line level rather than your microphones.

What I've done in the past in these small venues is to hang a mic from the ceiling directly over the stage. SM57/58 works as well as your AT4053a. Some small venues use a SM58 for house mic to be used for the booth for monitoring and cue purposes. Putting one or two PZM across the stage lip works wonderfully, particularly Bruce Bartlett's TM125HP microphones. No, definitely don't mount your CS3e in front of the stage because its window is very narrow. Once actors cross over to SL or SR, say goodbye to CS3e pickup.

I'm kind of hesitant to mix down 2 or more shotguns that are relatively different in pickup locations hearing the same source. You'll get comb filtering.

Maybe try two SM57 each strategically located about 1/3 the width of the stage and pan them L/R. Have your third mic on the side routed to C?

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Yup, SM57's are able to do this despite many sound folks in all industries disagree, all you need to do is crank it up on your 302. Use your ears.

The 3.5mm returns are not phantom powered thus you'll be feeding it line level rather than your microphones.

What I've done in the past in these small venues is to hang a mic from the ceiling directly over the stage. SM57/58 works as well as your AT4053a. Some small venues use a SM58 for house mic to be used for the booth for monitoring and cue purposes. Putting one or two PZM across the stage lip works wonderfully, particularly Bruce Bartlett's TM125HP microphones. No, definitely don't mount your CS3e in front of the stage because its window is very narrow. Once actors cross over to SL or SR, say goodbye to CS3e pickup.

I'm kind of hesitant to mix down 2 or more shotguns that are relatively different in pickup locations hearing the same source. You'll get comb filtering.

Maybe try two SM57 each strategically located about 1/3 the width of the stage and pan them L/R. Have your third mic on the side routed to C?

Alright, I'll try to setup three 57s across the stage and hang my 4053 from the ceiling. Should I use anything particular to hang the mic from the ceiling? Or can I just tape the cable and hang it that way? And I'll also try to get some boundary mics as well. I'll post the results here. Thanks so much for your help! It's greatly appreciated! :)

I wouldn't bother trying the sm57, it's great for rock 'n roll but you need "reach and rear rejection". Try contacting the local A.V / P.A company or even the town hall/conference centre as they usually have pcc's in stock.

Grant.

(null)

This is also my concern as usually they're used for vocal / drum mic where the sound source is really close. But as Alan said, I'll use my ears and see how it goes. :)

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"Should I use anything particular to hang the mic from the ceiling? Or can I just tape the cable and hang it that way?"

No, don't do that. Make sure it's firmly fixed and can't fall, or you run the risk of being sued and/or losing your mic when the tape gives way and the mic falls onto an actor or the stage floor. Rigging overheads in a theatre space needs to be done with care and with particular regard to the positioning of lighting instruments. Although most modern dimming equipment is pretty good these days, older stuff can chuck out all sorts of nasty stuff that will impart a horrible buzz all over your feed.

Regards,

John

(40 years in theatre sound and counting.)

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Do you have an idea of what the expectations are of this recording? The problems I've run into with any "room mic" approach (as opposed to wiring everyone) is that when the cameras zoom in to closer shots, the sound stays wide and roomy. This is ok with some people, and very not with others--you might want to find out about this w/ yr clients. For room mics--SM57s are a great all around mic, but in my experience cranking them up to hear dialog upstage will make for some pretty noisy tracks--both mixer/thermal hiss and every other tiny noise being made in the theatre. In many modern theatres the lighting equipment is quite shockingly noisy, so on your scout you might want to get the house people to run the stage lighting up so you can hear what you are up against. Sometimes I've discovered that even lip-mounted PCCs (a wonderful mic for this app) picked up too much noise vs. the dialog. If the stage IS pretty quiet, then you can do a lot with flown mics, but consider positioning them after seeing a performance so you know where the big speeches etc are. We found that even on a small stage we needed several.

phil p

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I'm with Phil on the expectations of video/tv viewers with room mic'ing v body mic'ing. If the project is covered in a series of wide® shots (like a performance green room feed) then mic'ing the stage will be ok. If the coverage is into mid-shots then the perspective will need to be tighter.

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" My main concern is I only have a 302 hooked up to 702. "

of course you provided little useful information, and there is a lot of "it depends" but basically, you are way under equipped for the gig.

You'll learn a lot from attending rehearsals as early as possible, and there have been a few good tips, depending on...

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hi there,

If you choose to take the good advice offered here to get some PCC type mics, be sure to look out for Shure MX393s as well - I find them greatly superior to Crown PCCs (never tried the Bartlett look-alikes) - and you have a choice of Cardioid or Hypercardioid capsules to put inside them.

I've got to echo what Phil and others say though, recording theatre shows and other live performance is my primary work, and it's more and more rare to find clients who are happy with a stage-front pickup - even for an Archival shoot. Whatever they say in advance, as soon as they marry the soundtrack with the invariably closeup-heavy vision edit, it just sounds wrong to them.

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Get your self an H4n use the internal stereo mic on it for the wide stereo front pickup then use your other mics and 302 and 702 to record zones and do a mix on the 302 of the zones to left for the tighter stuff, and the so can feed a track into the mic track of the H4n for sync.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So I just got back from the gig and I thought you guys would like to know what I did.

I ended up using 3 SM57s across the stage. I raised them pretty high so that I can get a more direct sound from the actors and less footsteps sound. I thought about buying boundary mics and hanging some from the ceiling but as time wasn't enough, I had to do it quickly.

3 SM57s hooked up to my 302 and I set them left, center, right respectively as was suggested. It did give a "stereo" feel to it which was quite pleasant. I was surprised by the quality. Though it's not as good as I would've liked it to be, the sound quality surprised me. The reverb/echo was not that annoying and I was lucky that the actors always delivered their lines when they were close to the mics.

I cranked them up pretty high (almost all the way) and yet the 302's preamps are so good that I barely hear any noise from them.

Camera wise, I fed the camera through my Senn G3 for guide track (I had the feeling that post would use Plural eyes for sync). And I told the cam guys to run internal sound on the 5Ds.

I will post a sample here soon but I will be very busy all week so I hope some time in the near future. All in all, it was a great time and camera had more problems than me. I put my headphones on, ride the meters occasionally, and enjoyed the performance. It was a great show! :)

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  • 9 months later...

How do PCC-160 style mics compare to AT u853a hanging mics for capturing live theatrical dramas (dialog, not musical, not choir)? I used to do a little bit of theatre sound and recall using the AT Unipoints and I thought they were alright. I know I've used the PCCs as well but can't recall my experience with them (I was more a lighting guy back then).

I'll be recording a play on Friday and I'm required to use some of these styles of mics and not allowed to lav talent :( Would love to hear some techniques used by people who do this type of work more than I do. Looks like Alan Chang and Phil Perkins are working a ton in that side of the biz.

 

Oh, it's a 99 seat theatre (small), Stage is 27' deep x 33' wide, ceiling is 19' at max and slopes to 12.5' to upstage center. It's only a cast of 4, main performance zone is center and upstage on a sofa (middle square of a tic tac toe game). Current plan is to do 3 mics around the front, either PCC or AT 853, and maybe a fourth 853 to focus on the main performance zone.

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I had good results in a theatre with a similar stage with Line-Audio CM3, wide cardioids matched pair, positioned A B 36 cm, slightly open angle. It's a low cost solution. I felt not only left-right positioning of the actors, but a realistic depth of the stage too. Director and audience liked it for its non-intrusiveness.

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Hi deep owl,

As I mentioned earlier in this thread's past life, I much prefer the Shure MX393S (the S is for the Supercardioid capsule option) to PCCs for a floor mounted mic - the same interchangeable capsule that is inside that is available as a lavalier and also on a gooseneck. I've seen the lav version used as a stagefront mic as well - lower visibility but same effectiveness. While using one as a hanging mic (or the AT equivalent) might in fact sound better (certainly less foot-fall noise), hanging mics are rarely acceptable to the Lighting Designer in professional theatre nowadays due to shadows - though you might get away with it in an amateur or educational setting. If the Sofa has a coffee table in front of it, the film-world trick of hiding a 'plant mic' on it works just as well in theatre. You will need to actively mix the mics (either live or track them for post mixing) to get the best results - especially if the one covering the couch is any sort of distance upstage of the others - to avoid phasing effects.

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Just returned from a viewing of the show. Pretty sure I can throw a pair of hypers up near the side stage and be all fine and good. Stage is actually only 20' wide and almost all the action takes place 8' - 12' upstage of the lip. Maybe I'll trow a PCC or the like on the CL lip.

I'm recording ISOs on my NOMAD and probably do a rough mono mix to camera. Anyway I do it will sound a bit more hollow and room present than doing it with lavs. Oh well, fun anyway.

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I've seen people do well on small stages with the Countryman Isomax 2 stage-mount mics, which are essentially small, thin lavs hung on long cables from the ceiling. They're nearly invisible, because they're so small and thin. I bet three or more of those across the stage floor would be able to do a reasonable job of capturing a live performance, provided the actors projected and didn't mutter too much.

 

They're also a good choice for a choir, and I've heard a few recordings that sounded remarkable, given the small size and (relatively) small cost of the mics. 

 

http://www.countryman.com/store/product.asp?id=3&catid=10

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Turned out quite decently with just 3 PCCs I was able to get last minute. I'd really like to grab some of those Isomax 2s next time the opportunity comes up to do one of these kind of things. Would also like to try the Bartlett recording PCC or throw CUBs out there.

What would I have done differently? Mounted my hypers near the 1st legs to catch more clearly the dialogue that was aimed directly side stage and upstage. Or, hang one of those Isomax mics upstage. Just felt I lost some of the clarity in the words when they didn't deliver lines in the general direction of the audience.

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