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Fundamentals of Multitrack Recording


BAB414

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So I've been living in a 2 track world for the last several years and I've finally upgraded to a 552/744 combo. I'm definitely new to multitracking and wanted to get an idea of some of the conventions we use. Here's some thing I'd like to know, in relation to narrative filmmaking:

1) How hot should your pre-fade isos generally be relative to the mix?

2) If you don't have enough tracks for isos and a mix, do you lose the mix and set your isos to post-fade, or do you put multiple mics on one "iso"?

3) In the mix, it makes sense that you don't cover one person with multiple mics at the same time because of phasing, perspective, etc, so does this mean that in a 2 person exterior, with one boom, and a lav for each actor, that if the boom is sounding good, the lavs are out of the mix and are only going pre-fade to isos? This just seems a little strange to me because then you're not really leaving room to adjust your lavs except with trims.

4) As a mixer, I've done 2 booms a couple times (to separate tracks in a 2 track setup), but I'm always weary because each mic is picking up what they are intended to cover, and to a lesser extent, they are picking up what the other mic is intended for, off-axis. Does keeping both booms up in the mix cause any phasing or perspective issues? In this situation, does one ride the faders up and all the way down with/after each line? Can more directional mics somehow work worse in this situation, say because of acoustics? I imagine it's rare to have two open cardioids in a mix. As a utility, I've seen situations with 2 booms where the reason we were doing 2 was because of overlap with an off-screen line, but I don't know how they were routed into the 788.

5) Outside of any "problems" #4 may/may not cause, out of curiosity, is some small (negligible?) amount of phasing inevitable?

Thanks,

Ben

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Most of your questions are about mixing technique. This is something that must be learned by doing (or watching). As a utility guy, I watched mixers mix multiple mics. I listened for things that worked and things that didn't. Cross fading is a skill which takes time to master, and its use changes with every situation. Sometimes it's better to leave multiple mics open, sometimes not. Use your ears to determine what you like and what works.

In terms of ISO recording, the tracks should be hot enough to be useful, but low enough for the added protection against peaks that they provide. On average, they are about 10dB below the mix when fader it at unity. And I wouldn't record ISOs only and no mix. If you have 5 mics and 4 tracks, then pick 3 mics to ISO. Or if post can handle it, you do have those 2 tracks on the 552.

Robert

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as for #2, it depends on the job.

Are you just mixing, and not one of those booms? If you can focus on mixing, *most* people do a mono mix these days. With a little creative routing, you can iso 4 tracks on your 744T, and the 5th input of your 552 on one of the internal tracks, and the other internal track being your mix. You can feed the TC from your 744T into the 552 so everything is in sync. If you can focus on mixing, do the iso tracks and work on your mixing technique. I am going to guess you are working on lower budget indies. You will be surprised how often they will use your mix (as much as possible), and you can use these projects to hone your skills. Are you feeding camera? If you are, a single XLR with your mono mix is a solid, and relatively cheap, way to send a high quality mix to camera. On *those* projects I felt a lot better about running a high quality XLR (or a few) than using very expensive breakout cables (and extensions) that are asking for destruction on a film set.

While it's not what you are doing, on most reality TV bag jobs we record iso tracks direct out from the mixer, and send the mix to the camera. The iso tracks on the 744, and the 552 might be the safety backup in case the camera hop fails. If that mix is intended for broadcast, or a reference+comtek mix is dependent on the job. Some jobs use the camera mix UNLESS something goes wrong. Some use the camera+comtek feed for reference (scratch mix to the image and over Comtek for the note takers) and then dig into the iso tracks for the edit.

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Here is an example of mixing technique, that Robert mentioned.

I would like to see more video's like this. The image is revered possibly by a mirror. to get the lens

closer to the action? no just reversed.....

Some people watch a guitar players hands to improve their playing, just saying.....

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Nice thread. I actually send post fader iso to multitrack recorder and send a scratch to cam. We go poly and post has always been happy

I have done very few jobs that demand mono, but if they want it, they REALLY seem to want it. If they don't tell me in advance, my default is poly. It makes 0 difference to me in terms of my day being easier/harder.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Nice thread. I actually send post fader iso to multitrack recorder and send a scratch to cam. We go poly and post has always been happy

Hi AudioMTL,

i'm interested in your post fader iso method. Most recordists I speak to don't do post fade iso's but some post people i've spoken to say they leave the mix and go straight to the iso's and would prefer a little more attention paid to their levels. In which case it makes sense to use the faders for the iso's and aux sends for the scratch track. Are you using a flatbed or zaxcom (postfade) or an SQN (not so many options out there for post fade iso's)?

dan.

ps i do understand that 'warm' (-10db peaks), post fade iso's would mean the mix sends would need to be attenuated.

pps.Thanks Kevin for posting the video. Been trying to work out what's what on the faders but i'm not sure i'm right. My instinct says the boom is the fader that gets moved least ie the 2nd fader from the mixers right (and is gets dipped a little to reduce phasing). The other 2 faders are the cast's personal mics (as he rides them most). The scene starts with cast someway apart saying goodbye and then they step closer to say some final things, where the mixer can play the boom for both their lines(?).

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" Most recordists I speak to don't do post fade iso's "

most of us consider the ISO's to be isolated (ISO) recordings of the raw inputs, the fundamental idea being that if needed, post can replay all these raw inputs and remix them at their relative "leisure...

recording them post fader doesn't allow that.

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I don't do post fade in the field, but do find it useful in the studio for dialogue recording / re-recording or music tracking. For music, for example, the Neve preamp will sound different as you gain up / down, while the SSL console will provide neutral clean gain adjustments, so set up my sessions with some "gain in hand" to allow for mid-tracking tweaking. For dialogue recording, it is simply a matter of leveling the audio during record passes on the nice convenient big fader, rather than reaching up to make an adjustment click on the channel strip's preamp gain. For a very dialogue intensive scene or interviews, I could see post-fade as a nice luxury for more competent cart setups, but when controls are limited in and more fluid moving in a bag, pre-fade all the way.

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interesting that some do post fade iso tracks, the reasons I like pre fade iso tracks is that it's a cover for a mis-mix and also if any actors ad-lib dialogue that you didn't mix for, like a get out of jail free card. I see no benefit in post fader iso's..? Level wise my old mix panel had a 7dB drop on the direct outs and I kept and my mix a bit hotter, now I run a zax mix 12 panel I don't have that option so I tend to run my mix faders at around + 6dB which means my iso tracks have 6ish dB more headroom than the mix. Interested to know what other Zax mix 8 & 12 users are doing regarding this situ?

C.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Post fader Iso?

I'm trying to figure out how that would be useful when recording. Other than having your mix replicated in a track by track method I can't see how that would help if you had someone turned down or an improved line or any number of things happen you have nothing on that track. Not exactly helpful on the post side.

Scott Harber

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I also work in post and our on set mixer is configured direct outs post eq and post fade. I don't provide a mix on set all I record is iso. I am more nimble riding vertical faders and prefer my ISo to be post eq, I peak at -6 for loud things and the limiters on my machine sound great. It's works well this way for a long time.

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Few things here: Post Fade ISO's i've done once, but never again. My reasoning was because I have to deal with a post editor who just effing sucks, has no ear for editing sound and has been messing up my work often lately (it's very embarrassing honestly). Anyways, I tried post fade iso's once for that specific job because I realized he wasn't adjusting (re-mixing) the pre fade isos at all, when they needed it, so I tried doing the job for him and did post fade. Cons to this was missing sections of quick dialog from someone jumping in and out of conversation, unscripted stuff (the nature of the show basically), or actually getting a clip cause someone just decided to get a bit too excited over something. I stick with pre fade ISO's (especially if providing a mix track) for the insurance factor of bad mixes and unexpected clips. I'll only do post fade iso's for lower track count scenarios, where a mix track isn't really a focus, and I don't trust post will be "re-mixing" anything to benefit.

As for Poly or Mono files, yes I think post has the final say, but I default to poly always because 99.9% of post i've ran into are too stupid to sync already and seem completely overwhelmed when more than 2 tracks of audio are on their timeline. Poly forces them to have all available tracks to their timeline so they don't miss anything, even though there's no guarantee they'll use it :P lol.

As for the fader technique with juggling faders with dialog, I'm limited with experience doing so... but I do enjoy its benefit when I nail down a good take. My biggest question with this is due to never having experience listening (as it happens) from a veteran mixer on set and watching him and how he/she goes about it. I've wanted to know how they deal with the dips between gain differences/ambient differences relative to the mic positions/types of mics when they're X-fading between wires, and even boom(s). My last feature I did I was mixing on my Mix 8 and really loving having fader control again :), but many times struggling with the mismatch of the above examples between what's being deployed for the scene. Many times, it was a beautiful thing where it felt like I just got done watching the actual finished product of the film (looked & sounded great), and for those takes I'd note down "MIX GOOD" hehe. A few years ago, RVD responded to a question I had similar to this one with some really good information, I'll edit in it's link if I can find it again.

Good topic :)

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  • 3 months later...
  • 4 months later...
 

I bumped into this tread by searching for "mixing techniques" and found it very helpful....maybe somebody else can add their experiences and/or techniques preferred when it comes to mixing down a stereo track....

 

Also, i was wondering whats the expected mix when "one man band" in documentary type of work. I can't really imagine ALL DAY LONG booming with one hand while mixing (and this still won't give you a proper mix if X-fading with one hand) ...do you guys just leave faders up for whoever is part of the scene and provide all ISOs for post to mix...?...

 

Bumping this great thread!

 

 

Thanks!

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