Wireless (IFB and talent) in UK and EU?

[RPSharman]

So to further my research regarding a move to England in the not so distant future...

There are threads going on about mixing brands of wireless and uses of IFBs. Someone mentioned the rules are hard to follow, so many live outside them.

What are the rules? How strict are they? Do people get caught? In the US, we have been using illegal video transmitters for years. Many still use Block 27/28 wireless, technically illegal. Most of us are "unlicensed". I don't know anyone to have been fined or shut down.

I currently own 216MHz Comteks, with a couple of 72MHz back-ups. All output at about 100mW. My Lectro wireless are 100mW only, in blocks 21/22 - one system is block 27 plug-on for God mic.

I am considering adding another system or two, but before I do, it makes sense to buy something legal in the UK, but usable here in the US.

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Robert

[Graham Newcombe]

Hi Robert,

Im operating in Ireland and i have never heard of anybody getting busted, but that's probably cause they are all using within the Ch69 but moving to Ch38 with the digital change over, so it was all "legal". Everything else is supposed to be swallowed up by the Digital TV Change Over / DCO. After that apparently there will be a low hum audible across CH69.

I know a few using Lectros on block 23 as that is ch38 here, at 100mW and they are ok.

I have been wondering about using the 216MHz Comteks in the UK/Ireland. I think its the freq that listening devices ( for the hard of hearing ) are on. I wouldn't be as worried about getting caught as much as I would about interference. The Comteks are close to the FM radio freq here. I asked Comtek Support and they said they had a few users in the UK using them and they were ok. But i have yet to talk to any users. I want to ask COMREG about it too..

I'd like to know if they operate ok as I'd love the Comtek system... so much more mobile then Sennheiser and Sure..

[Richard Lightstone, CAS]

Robert,

Why not contact Lectrosonics and Comtek directly since they deal with this in their product lines. They are very familiar with the regulations since they can only sell products that are "legal' within the UK and of course the rest of Europe.

[RPSharman]

Thanks, Graham. I look forward to more info on the 216 range stuff.

Do people in our field require licenses to operate? Do people operate without them? Is it expensive or just difficult to deal with?

Our B23 Lectro is 589-607. B24 picks up at 614 and goes to 639. It seems TV38 must be a specific product to your region. I had hoped to add B24 to my kit here, but don't want to invest in something I can't use globally. Seems I might not have a choice.

Much to consider.

My plan is to go back and forth. Perhaps 2 sets of transmitters/receivers might be required.

[James Arnold]

Thanks, Graham. I look forward to more info on the 216 range stuff.

Do people in our field require licenses to operate? Do people operate without them? Is it expensive or just difficult to deal with?

Our B23 Lectro is 589-607. B24 picks up at 614 and goes to 639. It seems TV38 must be a specific product to your region. I had hoped to add B24 to my kit here, but don't want to invest in something I can't use globally. Seems I might not have a choice.

Much to consider.

My plan is to go back and forth. Perhaps 2 sets of transmitters/receivers might be required.

Yes, people in our work are required to have a license for our radio microphones. These are easy to obtain here (http://www.jfmg.co.uk/pages/apply/apply.htm) and relatively cheap (about £100 per year). Lots of people worked without them out of pure laziness but were bitten on the backside when the current changeover was announced - no compensation for replacing gear without a license. It is fairly unlikely that you would be challenged to produce one in any other circumstances, but better safe than sorry. JFMG are a good source for anything regarding frequency co-ordination the UK.

Ch38 (referred to as '606' by Lectrosonics) covers the top part of block 23 and the bottom of block 24 - 606 to 614. Currently we are allowed to use CH39 and 40 in areas using CH38 for radio telescopes but last time I asked it was unconfirmed if this would be useable after January 2013 when CH69 is finally closed to us.

[RPSharman]

Robert,

Why not contact Lectrosonics and Comtek directly since they deal with this in their product lines. They are very familiar with the regulations since they can only sell products that are "legal' within the UK and of course the rest of Europe.

I have. I know more or less what's "legal". What I'm going for is what people are actually using. I am hoping to not have to own 2 sets of wireless equipment. But I do have a couple of years to see how things shake out.

[Matt Bacon AMPS]

I own and use Lectrosonic IFB's on block 23 (within the UK legal 606-614) and Lectrosonic SR/SM radiomics on block 606 (which covers UK channels 38-40) without too much of an issue. You could buy some radiomics on block 24 but as I understand it from January 2013 UK recordists are only allowed to use 606-614 for everything!!

Yes there are those that use block 20 for wireless hops or block 26 for IFB's but the main issue is in the UK you cannot be sure who is using it as well so your signal might be weaker and not work. Unlike the US the United Kingdom is heavily regulated when it comes to radiomic use. I have myself closed a shoot down when another recordist was illegally using frequencies I had legally licensed... not his best day at the office!

Why not buy UK block 606 and use that in the US if block 24 will work for you there?

[RPSharman]

608-614 TV 37 reads as "not available" on the US Lectrosonics frequency chart. They're the radio astronomy frequencies.

[VASI]

Wait a minute.

The SMV Transmitter support blocks from 470 to 26. (in US site)

The SMB/E01 Transmitter support blocks from 470 to 33. (in EU site)

Right? Because the dealer in Greece he told me the SM series not support block 27 up to block 33.

[pindrop]

......I have myself closed a shoot down when another recordist was illegally using frequencies I had legally licensed... not his best day at the office! .......

Interesting, how did you go about doing this?

How was the other shoot closed down?

What happened to the other recordists equipment he was using?

[TimPitot]

Beware blk23. Most of the ch38 freqs are unavailable due to US regs re radio astronomy.

[RPSharman]

I own and use Lectrosonic IFB's on block 23 (within the UK legal 606-614) and Lectrosonic SR/SM radiomics on block 606 (which covers UK channels 38-40) without too much of an issue. You could buy some radiomics on block 24 but as I understand it from January 2013 UK recordists are only allowed to use 606-614 for everything!!

Yes there are those that use block 20 for wireless hops or block 26 for IFB's but the main issue is in the UK you cannot be sure who is using it as well so your signal might be weaker and not work. Unlike the US the United Kingdom is heavily regulated when it comes to radiomic use. I have myself closed a shoot down when another recordist was illegally using frequencies I had legally licensed... not his best day at the office!

Why not buy UK block 606 and use that in the US if block 24 will work for you there?

If everyone has to be on 38 (606-614), are you licensed for the whole block, or specific frequencies? How are frequencies divvied up? Are there not enough shoots happening that people don't work near each other, or does the 50mW restriction solve that? Seems frightening to have all of one's wireless in one block.

Anyone here use TV38 exclusively around the UK? How's it working for you?

Robert

[Christian Spaeth]

It's an interesting question. I'm not UK but Germany based, but I guess it's pretty much the same everywhere. You're not likely to get caught using illegal frequencies under normal circumstances. Maybe if you use them on big sports events.

The last I heard was that it's not 100% legal to use Zaxcom digital radios in the EU yet (maybe someone knows more on this).

On a recent thread the difference between US and the newer EU Lectros was discussed (different channel deviation). Still, I guess people use the cheaper US Lectros and also Zaxcom radios in the EU (including the UK) and of course they work fine.

Video transmitters are still widely used, possibly without licenses.

In fact I think you'll be pleased to see that there is - at least until now - less interfence (TV stations etc.) over here than in the US.

[rich]

The last I heard was that it's not 100% legal to use Zaxcom digital radios in the EU yet (maybe someone knows more on this).

.

there is an EU mode with the zaxcom tx, but i dont believe this is recommended, at least thats what Howy told me when i spoke to him about it a few years ago, as it was making my transmitters crash. i have always used US mode, which takes up the same bandwidth as stereo mode - 200KHz, and this is legal for use in the UK at least. and i am working on the theory that i shouldnt be able to buy equipment that is meant for use in this country that was not legal to use in this country.

[Simon Hayter]

If everyone has to be on 38 (606-614), are you licensed for the whole block, or specific frequencies? How are frequencies divvied up? Are there not enough shoots happening that people don't work near each other, or does the 50mW restriction solve that? Seems frightening to have all of one's wireless in one block.

Anyone here use TV38 exclusively around the UK? How's it working for you?

Robert

I've just had my Audio Ltd 2040s tuned to Ch 38 a month ago, and I get 32 channels in that block. So far (2 weeks into a five month shoot) I have just used the the first 4 channels and had no problems at all, very solid. As someone else said, we are much more heavily regulated here in the UK and Ch 38 will be clean.

Regards

[Matt Bacon AMPS]

Interesting, how did you go about doing this?

How was the other shoot closed down?

What happened to the other recordists equipment he was using?

If everyone has to be on 38 (606-614), are you licensed for the whole block, or specific frequencies? How are frequencies divvied up? Are there not enough shoots happening that people don't work near each other, or does the 50mW restriction solve that? Seems frightening to have all of one's wireless in one block.

Anyone here use TV38 exclusively around the UK? How's it working for you?

We were working at a London based studio with multiple stages. I had licensed with JFMG some site-specific licenses as you rightly spotted if everyone is licensed on 606-614 (the whole block not specific frequencies) you can sometimes find there are no more available! It turned out the other recordist hadn't bothered to get a site specific license (JFMG do a check for you a tell you what frequencies will be free at your chosen location) so I was able to get him to turn off his equipment on the threat of calling JFMG who could have impounded his gear and issued him a rather large fine. That meant his shoot stopped while he explained to his producers and sourced new kit I guess. My shoot carried on.

You are also correct to say that at events where there are a lot of crews it can be a problem (well small nightmare unless you can co-ordinate between everyone). It is a rare phenomenon I'll admit maybe once or twice a year due to the type of shoots I do. Yes the 50mW helps and yes I suppose it sounds frightening but we have always been forced to work like this but because we know that the block is for radiomic use nothing else should be on it unless you are in range of another radiomic user. This is why radiomic companies have always issued a pre-cordinated frequency plan so you know which frequencies work well together within our block (are you listening Lectrosonics... we need an official pre-cordinated frequency plan for block 606 as Jim B's don't work!).

Channel 38 in my experience isn't as good as Channel 69 which we have been forced to vacate and this seems to be the case no matter which brand of radiomic used.

[Matt Bacon AMPS]

I've just had my Audio Ltd 2040s tuned to Ch 38 a month ago, and I get 32 channels in that block. So far (2 weeks into a five month shoot) I have just used the the first 4 channels and had no problems at all, very solid. As someone else said, we are much more heavily regulated here in the UK and Ch 38 will be clean.

Regards

Yes the Audio 2040's offer 32 tuneable channels but only 12 inter mod free (the first twelve) but from January 2013 when we loose the use of Channels 39&40 the 2040's will only have 6 useable inter mod free channels. I'm not saying the other manufacturers fair much better but it is worth considering if you're about to purchase a radiomic system on channel 38 for use in the UK post January 2013.

[Mark Andrews]

I have been finding it difficult to get a number of clean frequencies within ch38. Infact with my wireless systems (micron 100) I only have 5 selectable frequencies within ch38, most of the time none of them are particularly clean when i'm working in central london.

It is a nightmare, and if you need a good amount of wireless channels you are basically forced to do so illegally.

~Mark.

[pindrop]

We were working at a London based studio with multiple stages. I had licensed with JFMG some site-specific licenses as you rightly spotted if everyone is licensed on 606-614 (the whole block not specific frequencies) you can sometimes find there are no more available! It turned out the other recordist hadn't bothered to get a site specific license (JFMG do a check for you a tell you what frequencies will be free at your chosen location) so I was able to get him to turn off his equipment on the threat of calling JFMG who could have impounded his gear and issued him a rather large fine. That meant his shoot stopped while he explained to his producers and sourced new kit I guess. My shoot carried on.....

Ah thanks for explaining, all seems reasonable, you discussed the problem with the other recordist, and didn't need to call in the OFCOM armed response swat team!

[dolo72]

I've been ok with microns on channel 38 (central london and around the country) but just with 2 transmitters - I've still been using channel 69/70 if i need 3 or more transmitters. Unfortunately 216mhz is not legal in the uk l, the upper limit is (I think) 211mhz for VHF ( although I know people who have using 216mhz microns with no problems). I use VHF alot for camera hop and ifb and I have to say its been very reliable even though I only have 3 frequencies to choose from. Can you change the comtek frequencies on the 216 models like your can on the pr72a's ?

[RPSharman]

I've been ok with microns on channel 38 (central london and around the country) but just with 2 transmitters - I've still been using channel 69/70 if i need 3 or more transmitters. Unfortunately 216mhz is not legal in the uk l, the upper limit is (I think) 211mhz for VHF ( although I know people who have using 216mhz microns with no problems). I use VHF alot for camera hop and ifb and I have to say its been very reliable even though I only have 3 frequencies to choose from. Can you change the comtek frequencies on the 216 models like your can on the pr72a's ?

Yes. The 216s are frequency agile. I sure hope I can use them there. I'd hate to have to buy two new IFB systems.

[VM]

Hi Robert, If you are looking frequencies on a precise location in France, let me know. I will tell you which channels are supposed to be available. To be legal here : 50mW max, no license between 470 and 790 MHz.

[daniel]

Robert,

I'm not sure it is exactly clear to anyone here in the uk quite how things are going to pan out over the next few years with the frequency spectrum available to us but at least 3 manufacturers are making units with wide switching band widths (partly as a response to this problem but also for international flexibility). In descending order:

WYSYCOM (250mhz on the RX which can be programmed to work with other manufacturers transmitters, 120mhz on the TX) http://www.wisycom.com/

AUDIO WIRELESS (120mhz on TX and RX) http://www.audiowireless.co.uk/

audio ltd en2 cx2 (80mhz on RX, 25 mhz on TX) http://www.audioltd.com/new-en2-slot-in-receiver-debuts-at-bve-london/

As you can probably tell from the website, wysycom are in another league and the price WILL reflect that.

atb,

dan.

[Matt Bacon AMPS]

You may also wish to consider Sony digital radiomics. They are not my favourite sounding radiomic but I recently completed a project here in the UK where we needed to run 35 side-by-side on location. These were spread over several blocks and on site specific licenses because channel 38-40 is far too congested! If this the future of wireless in the UK - it is all going to get rather complicated!!

[rich]

we'll just have to go back to the old school, and abandon reality tv and boom everything.