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Red Epic Sound Problems


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I wanted to touch base on some of the sound-related threads going on over on the Red User group (Reduser.net), some of which have direct applications to mixers having to deal with timecode and sound inputs to the camera. Most of these discussions apply to both the Red Epic and the Red Scarlet, which are essentially the same camera, operating at different data rates (and with a $20,000 price difference).

Here are some highlights:

Epic Phantom Power (which does not yet work)

Random Audio Level Dropouts (said to be the fault of the bypassable limiter)

Low-Level Hum with Epic (caused by groundloop issues with the camera's AC adapter)

Fan Noise a Problem (self explanatory)

Fan Noise Reduction Possible (ditto)

How to Send Good Audio to the Red Epic (ditto)

Major Sync Issues (timecode and sound issues between Epic, SD Pix, and timecode)

Audio High-Pitch Background Noise (a weird lens issue getting into the audio circuit)

Interview Fan Strategy

Epic Fan Noise (added 12/2012)

Epic Pro I/O Module

The latter is a big issue for me, since I'm irate that Red is now selling a $3700 accessory box that finally adds conventional XLR audio inputs, a BNC timecode input, and easily-accessible audio outputs to the camera. My beef is: the main two inputs are still non-standard 3.5mm balanced (!) connections on the front of the camera. They still have no real line audio input; they pad down the mike input about 40dB to avoid overloading the preamp. The input limiter is almost unusable and is normally left on. The headphone monitor out is about 10dB too low. You can get timecode in to the camera, but presently, no timecode out. If the camera's power supply is removed, the timecode has to be re-jammed. And so on.

All these problems are solvable, and I think they will get better in time. If you have a half-hour to kill, head over there and read them and see what you think.

I don't think the Epic (or Scarlet) are terrible cameras. I think they make great pictures in the hand of a good DP, but the company's resources and design choices forced them to put sound and timecode low on their priority list, which is frustrating from our point of view.

Just venting.

Edited by Marc Wielage
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The latter is a big issue for me, since I'm irate that Red is now selling a $3700 accessory box that finally adds conventional XLR audio inputs, a BNC timecode input, and easily-accessible audio outputs to the camera. My beef is: the main two inputs are still non-standard 3.5mm balanced (!) connections on the front of the camera. They still have no real line audio input; they pad down the mike input about 40dB to avoid overloading the preamp. The input limiter is almost unusable and is normally left on. The headphone monitor out is about 10dB too low. You can get timecode in to the camera, but presently, no timecode out. If the camera's power supply is removed, the timecode has to be re-jammed. And so on.

I don't think the Epic (or Scarlet) are terrible cameras. I think they make great pictures in the hand of a good DP, but the company's resources and design choices forced them to put sound and timecode low on their priority list, which is frustrating from our point of view.

Just venting.

Marc,

I agree 100 percent with everything you have said and thanks for putting together this list. Thankfully my epic clients understand that the audio on the Epic is not reliable as primary audio. It is hard believe that RED has taken a step back in the audio department from the RED One but they have. I have had great success so far using a comtek to feed scratch and the DIT is syncing all audio for Post after transcoding the footage.

What I cannot believe is that some of these RED owners especially the one shooting an olympic athlete for Oakley would rely on the on camera audio as his primary audio source. Not even running a Zoom I just don't understand at all.

Overall my Epic/ Scarlet experiences have been good so far

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Thankfully my epic clients understand that the audio on the Epic is not reliable as primary audio. It is hard believe that RED has taken a step back in the audio department from the RED One but they have.

That baffles me as well. On the surface, the camera's specs claim they can take 4 channels of mike level in, line level in, and AES in; in the real world, I'm very nervous using the Epic or Scarlet for anything except a scratch track.

I'm also chagrined that somebody would build and sell a $40,000 camera with timecode and sound problems this severe. I swear, there were $10,000 ENG cameras in the 1980s with better audio sections than this, and zero timecode issues.

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I'm having big problems with audio high-pitched background noise in the red scarlet. We have 1 epic, and one scarlet. The problem seems to be intermittent, on both cameras.

WTF?

Lectrosonics 411a recivers, psc cables. Both batterie and powered from cameras have the same result. RF choke I put on today was of no help it seems.

Also I'm putting timecode into the camera as well from the Denecke tc boxes.

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I believe the high-pitched problem turned out to be lens related (which I know makes no sense). Check out the link above -- Red has a fix for it through their head office in Lake Forest (949-206-7900).

I want to make it clear I'm not piling on with a bunch of Red criticisms -- just that I've noticed a lot of audio- and TC-related issues just in the past few months on the Red forum, and I want people here to be aware of them and what the fixes are.

An insider who worked for Red for several years got back to me privately the other day and tells me that yes, audio is not high on their priority list. But I often comment to people on the Red forum, you're always better off hiring a competent sound mixer rather than trying to do the sound yourself, to not make the camera operator responsible for more than exposure, focus, and framing, and also to record on an external device. I think those rules hold true for any camera, except in a battle-type situation (wars, cops, undercover work, etc.).

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Coleman, I've had those Scarlet audio problems too. DIT read about problem being caused by lens mount! Not my problem, as it's only a guide track, but got a call from editor about various sound issues on this camera's tracks. I just shrugged over the phone.

What's the difference between a RED Scarlet and a soundman? answer: At the end of the day the Scarlet stops whining.

Chris Newton

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Very troubling story on the Red user website:

EPIC FAN NOISE - HEARTBREAKING DURING INTERVIEW

Apparently, NBC Sports was shooting a one-of-a-kind, heart-wrenching interview with an Olympic athlete who had a very troubled life, and at the most intense part of the story, the Epic fan kicked up to 100%, ruining the audio. (I have heard this referred to as "Hair Dryer mode.")

Yikes. In fairness to the company, they have been getting better at using a new, lower-noise design, and dropping the fan speed to 25% most of the time.

[corrected BBC to NBC Sports]

Edited by Marc Wielage
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If you read further down, someone quotes one of our members here:

I'm going to echo a sentiment that I read elsewhere:

"What if after carefully lighting a set, we started shooting and light started emitting from my recorder so strong that the continuity of the lighting was destroyed? I think I would be ejected from the studio along with my equipment fairly quickly."

The Epic is great for a lot of situations, but it is the wrong camera to use for rolling long takes when clean sound is essential. Like it or not, audio is half the equation and something to consider when choosing what camera is needed for the job.

It is very nice to read that other professionals on the camera side are catching on to this issue. In the end, they will be the one to force RED's hands at a fix with regards to fan noise.

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On the other side of the thread:

If the sound guy is complaining about the fan noise while rolling, get a new sound guy. Seriously. Epic with the fan set where it should be so it doesn't overheat is quieter than most film cameras ever made. If the sound monkey is using a shotgun mike close to the talent, as they should be in an interview, you will never hear the camera, or if you do, it will be so far under that it's a non issue.

Nick

Gotta love the attitude!

In most of my experience, when the camera starts making a horrible noise, the producer doesn't look first at the operator, they look right at the mixer and say "Can we live with that?" Once that question is raised, it's then treated as a sound issue.

On the good side, a lot of my Red owning clients aren't idiots, so I've got that going for me.

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On an Epic shoot this week I was asked the question, "Does the air need to be turned off."

My response was, "No problem. It's drowned out by the camera's fan." (Sadly, that wasn't a joke.)

Even at 25% it's still loud for an intimate scene. Telephoto lenses are our new best friend. With the Epic, the only chance we get to listen for other noise issues is during takes, and sometimes with battery changes if the crew is uncharacteristically quiet.

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On the other side of the thread:

Gotta love the attitude!

In most of my experience, when the camera starts making a horrible noise, the producer doesn't look first at the operator, they look right at the mixer and say "Can we live with that?" Once that question is raised, it's then treated as a sound issue.

On the good side, a lot of my Red owning clients aren't idiots, so I've got that going for me.

Yeah, that attitude is terrible, and is an extreme disservice to sound professionals. It's a shame that some poor camera noob will read that and take it as factual information.

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I have a my second redone shoot coming up. Last time we ran completely dual system no TC and no feed to cam. This time will be TC free run , jam , jam , jam and probably scratch track too. Been reading and I'm pretty horrified! Hope the attitudes are reasonable as it seems like the inexperience comes with the camera quite often :/

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It is very nice to read that other professionals on the camera side are catching on to this issue. In the end, they will be the one to force RED's hands at a fix with regards to fan noise.

Yep. And I told the shooter, you gotta have a backup camera body for these jobs. Hell, if they even had a $2000 Canon 7D, that would have at least saved the shoot and gotten reliable footage. Not as good as a Red, but infinitely quieter.

I'm sympathetic to Red to a point, and I honestly believe the camera can make good pictures, but the company has to address the problems with 1) noisy fans, 2) bad 1/8" audio inputs, and 3) lack of rock-solid timecode stability during power cycles. Those three things are solvable.

I've been doing camera hops lately, but I warn the editor not to rely on the camera sound for anything but a scratch track. I pray that they're listening to me and syncing up the dailies...

"Epic with the fan set where it should be so it doesn't overheat is quieter than most film cameras ever made."

90% of these morons have never used a film camera in their lives and have no clue how loud or quiet a film camera is. The worst film camera I ever had to deal with was a misadjusted Movicam, and I think it was maybe 35dB of noise, if that. (Granted, an unblimped Arri IIC or 16/S back in the day were like a jack-hammer, but those were traditionally MOS cameras.)

When the Red Epic fans blast up, as they will in a long, long take, it's literally over 60dB if it hits 100%. Even when they set the camera to throttle down the fan during record, it goes right back up the moment they cut. Having that much noise on the set makes it really difficult to set mike balances and get a sense of how much "actual" set noise will be happening during the scene.

The greatest shotgun mike in the world ain't gonna help if the noise is ricocheting all over the set, and the camera is 5 feet away. Blaming the sound mixer for this problem is astonishingly ignorant, foolish, and unprofessional.

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I worked with the EPIC for the first time yesterday. And I do have to say that the timecode was accurate all day at 23.97. I actually jammed the 788T as the slave to the camera believe it or not instead of the other way around.

And yeah, the line level settings are not properly calibrated on the EPIC.

When the camera was moved physically closer near the talent, the fan noise I learned was a major issue. It sounded probably as loud as a 16mm film camera. For shits and giggles, I asked camera crew if they had a barney jacket for the camera. I got the classic look of me having three heads.

Anyway, first Epic shoot. I'm sure it won't be the last and probably many to come.

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Really interesting and very useful.

Thank you Marc.

I do have to bite my lip occasionally as I read some of the comments about sound by camera folks! My goodness how true the adage "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!" Still the majority seem to want to get it right, hooray for that.

Now come on RED, sort your act out!

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If an external Denecke box works okay on the camera, then the main issue is the noise. Remember when there were people saying how great digital was because there were no moving parts to make noise? Oh, the days of innocence.

Double system is great. It gives us more control over our product. The biggest issue with Red improving the on-board audio, is that it will still be inferior to our recorded sound, but there will be more and more people using the Red's sound for convenience sake. The nasty time code bleed actually helps us in that regard.

I hope Red keeps the on-board as bad as it is -- or better yet -- makes it worse! If it's a reference track, it should sound like a reference track so no one is tempted to use it.

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I have a little twinge each time I even read this topic title. I force myself to read everything posted here but it is depressing me. I am about to start a major motion picture (I've stopped using the word "film" altogether) which will be shooting with the RED Epic camera(s). No issue with sound to the camera (we're not going to do that) no issue with sync (sync boxes provided by the camera dept.) but the SOUND of the camera I'm sure will be an issue. The Director and the Producers have never done a movie with a digital camera, always film, and I'm sure once they hear the RED they are going to ask me what I can do about it. The answer, of course, is nothing I can do about the fan noise. I hate to have to give an answer like that to a question about a sound problem.

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" I hate to have to give an answer like that to a question about a sound problem. "

...but it is not a 'sound problem'. it is 'a sound that is a problem', and that sound comes from a piece of equipment, so those responsible for that equipment are responsible for the sound it makes, and dealing with it. It is no different than if it was a film camera making too much noise for proper sound recording.

Waaaaay back when, the cameras were noisy and had to have little rooms built around them, and it was not the sound department's job to design and build those rooms...

nothing has changed.

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If you have them set the fan on the lowest run setting (there are separate settings for RUN and IDLE -- or whatever they're called) which is currently 25%, it isn't much worse than some film cameras and will likely only be an issue on tight, intimate shots.

With that in mind, since you're not concerned about camera audio or time code, your biggest issue will be how noisy the camera is between shots when your team is wanting to suss out any and all location noise issues prior to rolling. "Hair dryer" mode is an apt term. That's just what it sounds like.

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"...but it is not a 'sound problem'. it is 'a sound that is a problem', and that sound comes from a piece of equipment, so those responsible for that equipment are responsible for the sound it makes, and dealing with it. It is no different than if it was a film camera making too much noise for proper sound recording."

The difference is with a film camera, I was well aware of all the things that could be done to alleviate the sound from the camera that was a problem --- reload the mag, adjust the pitch, use an optical flat, use a barney, etc. These options do not exist as solutions to the sound the RED makes. I can only hope they have cold packs available, we have short takes and actors are speaking loudly.

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I can understand your worries, Jeff. There are those kind of jobs where one can or has to live with a bit of background noise (ten minutes per day TV episodicals for example, something I do currently). For a major motion picture, where some of the best people in their domains are hired to create a highest quality product, where a sound mixer wouldn't use a wireless boom in order to get cleaner or better sound, this seems hard to swallow.

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