John Blankenship Posted January 11, 2013 Report Share Posted January 11, 2013 Question from someone with limited tech knowledge: on a simple indoor 1 cam shoot with 1 track of dialogue and 1 ambient scratch to a TC recorder such as 702t, is a TC sync system necessary to feed epic? Or is jamming upon each cam restart sufficient? In other forums concerning this topic, members mention having a denecke/lockit/TcBuddy etc, but wondering if anyone has bypassed with good result. Something as simple as a good, old-fashioned slate clap will work fine, but the best answer to your question really depends upon what post expects. If they expect to sync via time code and they can't, there might be grumbling aimed in your direction. It's really not a big deal for post to hand sync everything but oftentimes perception trumps reality. Talk to post and work backwards from there. In any case, I recommend still clapping the slate as that is the most foolproof backup you can have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Austin Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Thanks, it hasn't seemed like a big deal to rejam over and again, but I've never gotten to deal directly with TC systems. As long as cam and sound are always talking, seems like sound will come out good. I always come down hard on sound and camera crew if I find out they haven't been communicating. Seems like too many inexperienced ppl wrkng around 35mm/RED don't realize they are playing with the pros and it is more often then not on the camera side. Can't everyone just get along? LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted January 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Thanks, it hasn't seemed like a big deal to rejam over and again, but I've never gotten to deal directly with TC systems. As long as cam and sound are always talking, seems like sound will come out good. Logistics on set sometimes don't allow the departments to talk or confer, especially under battle conditions. I would recommend putting a lockbox (or SB-T) on the camera and using a clap slate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Logistics on set sometimes don't allow the departments to talk or confer, especially under battle conditions. I would recommend putting a lockbox (or SB-T) on the camera and using a clap slate. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Hi, and welcome... " is a TC sync system necessary to feed epic? " it depends... but if you are feeding audio to the RED Epic, you may not need, want, or use any TC sent to the camcorder...... " I always come down hard on sound and camera crew if I find out they haven't been communicating. Seems like too many inexperienced ppl wrkng around 35mm/RED don't realize they are playing with the pros and it is more often then not on the camera side. " so you are neither camera nor sound, but are the ? ... and which "inexperienced ppl wrking 35mm/RED" are you referring to ?? and who are "the pros" ?? ... and why is that so ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Austin Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Thanks Mark, true, and to answer Mike, I direct micro budget promotional, music videos, and short narrative projects, always use RED camera. Most of the time with very minimal crew. An example of problems due to inexperience was a short narrative project I signed on for last minute 3 weeks ago with me, a DP, camera operator, DIT, and a single audio mixer/recorder/boom op. During meeting I learn that neither DP nor camera op the producer hired has ever used a RED. Yikes. And the TC cable the sound guy had advised each of them to get via email was not rented. OK, no TC. After several takes of first shot playback, dummy slate is out of focus in frame. Sound guy already annoyed, seems camera doesn't know the importance of writing on slate being visible to post, especially w/o TC. We stop shooting and fix problem, I thought. And at end of day, camera had not told sound proper filenames to indicate scene/ take changes on sound file nor updated each slate correctly, and ignored presence of audio recording. I ask both parties how disparities occurred after we had supposedly remedied them, and the conclusion I drew was that after tempers flared, the 3 people gave up on communicating, which of course caused problems. I realize I don't work in a center of Film/TV (Texas), and super low budget stuff like I do doesn't always attract veteran crew, but I wish ppl working with this type of pro equipment would realize what level it is on and educate themselves on how to use it prior to agreeing on paid jobs. If you want Hollywood quality sound and picture, it takes more than just renting an Epic and point and shoot. More importantly though, if you do have limited knowledge/experience, learn everything you can on a set by communicating. I learned everything I know about production by reading on the internet and asking questions on sets. I suppose a production professional is someone who knows how to do their particular job, use their tools, and act as a team member with the common goal of creating the best possible film. And if you are unfamiliar with a certain protocol, ask before a single take gets wasted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 " I learn that neither DP nor camera op the producer hired has ever used a RED. " that would seem to be misuse of the titles DP and camera operator... and would seem to be a cue for bailing on a project... of course, you get what you pay for... " the conclusion I drew was that after tempers flared, the 3 people gave up on communicating, which of course caused problems. " these are not the pro's you were mentioning... right? " We stop shooting and fix problem, I thought. " " it takes more than just renting an Epic and point and shoot. " 100% agreement on this... aka <tiger> " I learned everything I know about production by reading on the internet and asking questions on sets. " I'm afraid you may be learning some very bad habits... " I direct micro budget ... " and you make a living at this ? how much was this crew being paid ?? were they worth it ?? how much was the camera ?? was it worth it ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Austin Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 I only take the good learned habits with me to a shoot and if I find they don't jive with a good end result, I change them. Yes I do make a living doing this and love what I do, enough said. Don't know what the crew was being paid, but when they repeatedly cause problems as I mentioned earlier and don't fix them, they aren't worth much. And as long as a great sound mix is implemented, the pictures I get from my Epic are worth every penny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 (edited) " the pictures I get from my Epic are worth every penny. " ah, so that is why the DP and operator didn't need to know how to use the Epic... yes, I'm getting a much clearer picture of this all now... (was that a pun?) " And as long as a great sound mix is implemented, the pictures I get from my Epic are worth every penny. " so you are saying <tiger> applies to sound, but not to picture ?? " I only take the good learned habits with me " like being a DP requires more than pointing a camcorder... Let me clarify that a good DP is different from a good camera operator, and in fact the DP may not know how to operate the camera as well Edited January 14, 2013 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Austin Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 Mike, you should have been a litigator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemmerlinj Posted January 15, 2013 Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 I have a shoot on Weds with an Epic. My plan was to just use an ERX1 TCD for code and scratch track. I'm guessing I need to pad the audio signal as it seems this camera either doesn't handle line level or is mic level only. Should I expect any issues with getting te timecode into the Epic with the ERX. I'm going to bring a SBT box just in case. I'll also have a Denecke TSC. Guess I'll keep all my bases covered. Any pointers are appreciated. Cheers! Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted January 15, 2013 Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 I have a shoot on Weds with an Epic. My plan was to just use an ERX1 TCD for code and scratch track. I'm guessing I need to pad the audio signal as it seems this camera either doesn't handle line level or is mic level only. Should I expect any issues with getting te timecode into the Epic with the ERX. I'm going to bring a SBT box just in case. I'll also have a Denecke TSC. Guess I'll keep all my bases covered. Any pointers are appreciated. Cheers! Jason You can drop the signal at the ERXTCD, no need for padded cable. As long as your TC cable is wired correctly, you shouldn't have any problem getting TC on there. Just make sure the TC level is 1v or higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted January 15, 2013 Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 On my last RED Epic job NOBODY on the Camera crew knew much about the camera at all... Problem 1.... It was really strange.... Of the 3 they had there on set, they said only one could take a sync box or sound....no modues they said.... I did not argue..... The VTR guy also had issues because distorted noise was coming back down one of the VIDEO out lines back to him... It was really strange... After disconnecting everything.... my feed to camera.. a (216).... caused noise down his Image BNC back to video... we decided to simply forget about the audio to the Epic and treated it like a film shoot.... I had had it at that point... Pain in the ass, all of it.... The VTR, Camera guys and everyone else within 50 ft. of the camera disliked it and the camera was the brunt of jokes.... for 4 days.. Most of the guys said this was not an isolated deal... They said the camera should of been called "should of used an Alexa".... It was shocking how little the camera guys knew about the camera.... shocking.... They just had no clue... I personally do not think anything is WRONG with the camera... just that some of the camera ACs are not keeping up with their homework... OK, the camera MAY have a few quirks... but only a few... I am STILL and always have been under the belief that we are to show up at the side of the camera and present the crew with a working Audio source... It is up to them to take their camera and get it set up menu wise to accept my working audio... I would then double check the gain and that in fact sounds normal... Their camera, my sound source... I was told this long ago by a rep at 695... They did not care too much for us getting too touchy feely with the camera gear... they said, "is it yours" "do you maintain it" "Are you a camera person?" "do you operate it?" "do you receive rental for it?" "do you transport it?" Although there are quotation marks, this was not exactly what was said, it was too long ago.... but that was the just of it... I can also remember something like... "hand them the cable and walk away.." Now, I am as much a team player as anyone, and I want to work with others, but the camera crews MUST get up to speed on their cameras and remove the need for us to now have to deal with the operation of THEIR gear.. It's not rocket science, they should deal with it...Especially on BIG crews... 5 person crews, well OK... but 150 person crews... enough is enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted January 15, 2013 Report Share Posted January 15, 2013 You CAN build up an Epic and make it the size of a traditional camera, but you can also keep it tiny. I'm specifically thinking of 3-D rigs. I forget what you can get an Epic 3-D rig down to, but it's relatively light, and that opens up a lot of mounting options (jibs, steadycam, car mounts etc). I never did 3-D stuff, but I know grips that did a local 3-D shoot with Red Ones a few years back and they said the camera rig was 100lbs+. Two big Red Ones with a lens splitter and a giant aluminum angle to hold the two cameras 90 degrees off each other. Forget handheld, forget most jibs, forget Flycam, forget hostess trays. The Epic changes that. You can say 3-D is a terrible trend, but they are releasing at least one new 3-D film every month, and have been for the last two years. I think studios see it as a way to thwart downloading, so at least in theaters it seems to have some legs. If I remember right, that was the commitment that helped the massive 3-D expansion a few years ago. The local mall multiplex theaters had to have a reason to upgrade their projectors beyond Avatar and The Hobbit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted June 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 And to bring this thread up to date: there's a new conversation on the Red User Group about fan noise in the (optional) I/O Module, which provides XLR connectors for inputs 3 and 4 (but not to 1 & 2), and also a variety of input and output jacks. Unfortunately, for this particular user, the I/O Module is extremely noisy, and puts out a sharp whine right at 1100Hz... which is not good... http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?100905-Pro-i-o-and-fan-noise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Smith Posted June 4, 2013 Report Share Posted June 4, 2013 Marc: Interesting and thoughtful post, made by someone who actually seems to have a handle on what he's talking about. I have copied the full text below, as I think it bears repeating. It just amazes me that the people at RED have managed to botch things so badly for so long-but I guess I shouldn't be surprised given the past history. Full post from RedUser.net: Recently I purchased a pro i/o and I just want to report my experience for those who are considering purchasing one as I think that it is only fair that other Red Users are fully informed before they purchase such an expensive piece of gear. I was very surprised when I started testing the unit after I received it at the level of the fan noise. Even when the camera fan falls away during recording after you press record, the fan on the unit continues. It needs to as otherwise the unit overheats. It is continuous and does not turn off when you press record. The sound the fan emits is about 1100 hertz. Unfortunately it limits the usefulness of the unit considerably. You cannot use it in small or even in a medium sized room and record clean sound. Effectively you cannot use it for interviews unless you are about 12 feet away. You cannot have it on and record room tone. I have done extensive testing with the unit testing both with and without the unit. The only way to get clean sound is to remove the sound of the unit with an equaliser or noise reduction afterwards. This is characteristic of the unit and part of its design. It is not specific to my unit. The fan noise is not a problem in other situations. For example, there is no difficulty recording outdoors or in noisy locations. It is a real pity as the unit has some real strengths. I like being able to record AES direct to camera for example and it is great having full size XLR inputs. Robert Castiglionewww.neweditionsfilm.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted June 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2013 Yeah, the moment I read that, I thought DOH! An 1100Hz whine would be murder to have to deal with in post. In fairness to Red, there are a bunch of other people who have joined in on that thread and said that their specific I/O modules do not have any bad audible whine, just normal fan noise (and not critical at a reasonable distance from the actors). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Thomas Posted June 22, 2013 Report Share Posted June 22, 2013 Anyone have any experiences with the Epic in particularly hot environments (how long til 'hairdryer mode' kicks in)? I'm in negotiations about a job in Georgia (country, not state) this August and I expect it to be very hot. I had a shoot last week where camera dept were saying it was struggling a bit where it was only about 25C and humid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Tresch Posted July 10, 2013 Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 Hello, Dragon Epic (the new sensor) also brings also good news for the sound crew. IT seams that it will run with less power consuption and less heat and will support more heat before overheating. This means considerably diminishing the fan speed. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?102557-Dragon&p=1227499&viewfull=1#post1227499 Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Tsai Posted July 10, 2013 Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 Hello, Dragon Epic (the new sensor) also brings also good news for the sound crew. IT seams that it will run with less power consuption and less heat and will support more heat before overheating. This means considerably diminishing the fan speed. http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?102557-Dragon&p=1227499&viewfull=1#post1227499 Pat Lower power yes, but actually more heat oddly enough. In the first post, http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?102557-Dragon&p=1227183&viewfull=1#post1227183 Jarred mentions the Dragon Sensor actually likes the heat. So the fan speed is lowered because it's actually allowing the sensor to heat up to a higher temperature. Not only that but they've actually added a heating element so the sensor can rise up to nominal operating tempurature faster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Tresch Posted July 10, 2013 Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 Where do you get that from? Adding a heat élément? Dragon will be happier with heat and therefore cope with less cooling. Thats my understanding. Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Tsai Posted July 10, 2013 Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 Where do you get that from? Adding a heat élément? Dragon will be happier with heat and therefore cope with less cooling. Thats my understanding. Pat Buried in the thread:-P http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?102557-Dragon&p=1227390&viewfull=1#post1227390 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted July 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 That's wacky! But the important thing is, Red is aware that the Epic was noisier than it should have been, and they're offering at least a partial solution. I can't see where shooting in 5K with even bigger files will make the camera run cooler -- I think it's going to run hotter. I'm convinced that if they started from scratch on the fan design -- as Apple did on their new MacPro -- and really thought about the shape, size, angle, and number of fan blades, I bet they could solve the problem that way. Unfortunately, I think mechanical noise, timecode, and sound are low on their priority list. Don't get me wrong: there's a lot about the Red Epic that is really brilliant, and I think many of the engineers and programmers at Red are very bright people who care about what they do. And the camera can make fantastic pictures. But I think they have to look at the bigger picture. As another example, they lost a lot of ground to Alexa primarily because Arri paid very close attention to post requirements, and made their camera capable of creating files that could be immediately edited without conversion, which is vital for quick turnaround. That alone put Alexa on top for American TV over the last 2-3 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Tresch Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 I think Marc is right, The sensor will be running hotter without problem but the core will have to cope with more heat. And the core is at it's limit at 75c. I've tested the new Bottom Fan today. He is not much bigger (longer fan blades) but he makes more noise than the old one... I'm staying with the old fan and shooting in Adaptive mode (wich is better as I thought) with my beloved FanPlate ;-) Pat PS: Piman, I've overseen that. You have a sharp eye! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Wynne Posted February 1, 2014 Report Share Posted February 1, 2014 While feeding the red epic yesterday I noticed about a 3 to 4 frame delay on the return feed. Seemed to be better on playback. Post had mentioned the same issue on a previous shoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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