Long reach shotgun mic's

[JonO]

I'm going to be working on a project in Sumatra shooting a surf film, and I need to find a shotgun mic (816, MKH-70 or similar) with the longest reach possible. I don't have much experience with the long gun shotgun mics

I've have used parabolic mic's before (Big Ears) and didn't care for the sound. Does anyone have any recommendations as to what mic has the longest reach?

Thanks,

Jon

[Marc Wielage]

Very hard to beat the MKH816, but it's very big and heavy. Is this a feature film with predictable situations, or is this a documentary that might go all over the place? Surf and surf-related films have been covered here before; a lot depends on how close you can get to the participants. In some cases, wireless (and waterproof) lavs might work better, but it's difficult to predict.

[JonO]

It's a surfing documentary. We are bringing waterproofed Zaxcom wireless custom made for the production company. They shot some stuff earlier at Mavericks with the radio mic's and I listened to it. At times they sounded OK, but whenever the lav's hit the water, they sounded terrible (and theres nothing that can be done about that). I'd like to get up close wave sounds and possibly pick up some yells and hoots that can be mixed in with the lav's, to make the tracks sound more professional. I'd like them to use the boom for a base sound and then bring up the mic's occasionally when they are clean.

I'm going to try and wield this thing from a jet ski- so lighter is better...

[dominiquegreffard]

What a gig. Wow

[Jon Gilbert]

Sanken CS3e worked for me on a surfing doc, on a 10 foot pole, it was manageable when I was up to my tits in the surf and pulls out clean dialog much better than anything else of it's size. An 816 or MKH70 will be virtually unmanageable on a jetski.

[pindrop]

Schoeps Super CMIT certainly short light highly directional? Better than a CS3e maybe?

[Michael Kennedy]

Sanken CS3e worked for me on a surfing doc, on a 10 foot pole, it was manageable when I was up to my tits in the surf and pulls out clean dialog much better than anything else of it's size. An 816 or MKH70 will be virtually unmanageable on a jetski.

+1 CS3e is a great choice. I'm wondering how you're going to keep yourself and your mixer/recorder dry working off of a jet ski. is there anything that you can wrap your gear in to keep it from getting soaked? I've been the back of a jet ski twice in my life and fallen off both times...and that was definitely without a boom pole in my hands! Sounds like an exciting gig though...good luck!

[JonO]

"I'm wondering how you're going to keep yourself and your mixer/recorder dry working off of a jet ski. is there anything that you can wrap your gear in to keep it from getting soaked"

Yes, this is going to be a big issue. I'm not sure either, but I'm headed to LSC Monday and start talking to people. I'll also try to rent a 816 and mkh-70 from them and bring them to Malibu to test them out.

"Schoeps Super CMIT certainly short light highly directional"

I'd love to use a Schoeps! Unfortunately I'm nervouse about humidity issues- I think I will have to sacrifice some quality for reliability.

" CS3e worked for me on a surfing doc, on a 10 foot pole, it was manageable when I was up to my tits in the surf and pulls out clean dialog much better than anything else of it's size. An 816 or MKH70 will be virtually unmanageable on a jetski."

Great! That's good advice-I'll probably ditch the long shotgun for any dialogue. I'm primarily using it for a wild sound mic- the production wants to feature sound heavily as the expedition is sponsored partially by Dolby. I'm hoping to capture some up close sounds of the 10 ft waves crashing around the surfers. Something audiences really haven't heard before. I'd like to use the 816 without a pole and hold it with the pistol grip of the zeppelin.

I'm also trying to get production to purchase a hydrophone- anyone worked with one of those?

[Tom Visser]

It's noisy out there, I sort of doubt your going to get good sound out there. Is there a defined channel where the jet ski can park without having to idle the engine? Most of the action is going to happen on the inside so your not going to get much hanging near or outside the lineup. Your only possible chance would be a shotgun way up over the break like from a balloon or something (never seen this done). Hydrophone is not going to sound good and when submerged, the sound is not going to contribute to the picture. The effort would be worth it for sports coverage, but not sure about doc, I would approach it as more of a post challenge with more controlled variables.

[JonO]

The hydrophone would only be for underwater shots and would capture unique, cool sounds like waves breaking onto the reef.

Hopefully there will be channels to get me close to the action. We will be shooting at a bunch of different breaks, so I'm sure that some will allow me closer than others.

The balloon idea is interesting. I think that the production company has one of those drones that they mount cameras on...maybe I could get a shotgun mic onboard....

[Jon Gilbert]

I doubt the hydrophone would get the sound of waves breaking, they don't sound like that underwater.

[Rob Stalder]

If you are going to try out an 816, then try it out hand held - very easy to use this way & sound will travel accross the water - imo boom pole not a serious advantage, when speed & momentary access to sound opportunity (and) hanging on more important.

They are not called a shotgun microphone for nothing.

From my who am i today " Then we followed it around in the 7 helicopter with the doors off, LG sitting sideways on the rear seat, hand holding the ACL. I loosened my belt & leaned over him with my 816 just inside the slipstream. You could so hear that V8 storming across the mountain, along with the occasional fx of the rotors snipping leaves & twigs as we slid in & out amongst the trees"

I have 2 and used them for years on doccos hand held. Engine noise will be a problem, but it could be possible to cut it momentarily.

Or you might have opps where the noise you are trying to record is louder than the engine idle.

Have also got to say that the day I bought my CS3 Sanken was the day my use of the 816 declined - its pattern is almost as tight, its pulling power is almost as strong, its rear rejection is better - and yes its easier to manage, especially on a boom. Have never had a humidity problem with either. Used 816 on sailing ships & white water rafting in rain enviro's.

You could also carry a plastic garbage bag to slip the 816 in when you are not actually recording.

By the way my 816s are not for sale (yet).

Hope that helps,

Rob Stalder

[Tom Visser]

The sound of the water is going to "confuse" and overload the shotgun. It would work on calmer days, but your talking about a surf doc. Ideally they would be shooting in overhead surf. They would probably love it if it were double or triple overhead. Think about the mass of water in a good surfing wave. You have a wave created by a storm a thousand or more miles away, for a newly arriving swell, that could be a period of about 15 to 17 seconds apart or so and with a speed to 15 to 30 mph depending on the size (speed increases with size). Each of these deep water swells, as they reach the costal reefs and start to break, could have the mass of a couple of busses or even a fleet of busses. does the wave break at a point and peel off, or does it all sort of mass up and break more violently, almost like a "close out"? The wave that just broke 15 seconds earlier is causing a fleet of bus noises back towards the beach. The breaks to the left and right of you will have hundred of busses worth of water creating the equivalent of a bunch of speakers playing white noise all around you. Good surfing places have wind blowing off shore. Something like 5 to 10 knots is idea, blowing right into the face of the wave, almost helping to scoop out the shape of the wave. As the wave breaks, it creates a little mini vortex of wind and water that gurgles and spits out all types of spray (don't even think about bringing a Schoeps mic). The water support people would probably laugh at you if you brought along anything with you that you have a expectation of staying dry.

The only chance a shotgun would have is high above pointing down, with the rear lobe up to the sky and the rejection pattern horizontal to cut out the white noise of the ocean, that is why I described the balloon idea in the earlier post, not because I've seen it done or even think it is a good idea, just because of physics, that seems like the only possibility.

Maybe if the doc is about a bunch of old guys or amateurs taking an adventure trip to an exotic surf destination... it could work, but if your following pros in typical prime conditions, it will be a hell of a lot more challenging.

[Olle Sjostrom]

I'm trying to think of everything I can, had a wild idea about a goPro camera an a waterproof lav... But it seems the only thing I can come up with is the mkh816 or possibly ntg8, cs3e even, in your hand. A boompole would probably too much of a hassle in that environment.

Tom wrote a very good post IMHO. White noise hell, the ocean. I shot a small sequence on a boat the other week, we had salt water everywhere. Miraculously my dpa lavs stood out and the schoeps ccm41 never said a word. Rycote fur will never be the same though... Anyway, point being; even on open sea with not really huge waves and they're not even breaking, the noise is a huge issue. Only lavs saved me there. Plus I had to battle my seasickness... Good luck, have fun!

[studiomprd]

I used an 816 for years on Baywatch and its "reach" over the water was spectacular, though I suspect if I were doing it now I might be using a CS2e, or perhaps a superCMIT. (BTW, Baywatch 1st unit was using a Neuman 82).

Water protection (and even worse, it is ocean water!) is vital, and possibly useless in the end, so be certain production understands and is prepared for the L+D. (on Waterworld L+D was virtually 100% in the end) The water situation also means spares should be available. Fuzzies, boom poles, and such become expendables...

Hydrophone: Ambient!! (While DPA has discontinued hydraphone's I believe they are still available from B+K instrumentation. but as with the above water sound, the underwater sound you record may not be what you are expecting, or want for the finished product.

On Wind, we had sailmakers make special, custom drybags for the gear, including Stereo Nagra's, and each day ended with thorough attention to cleaning and drying, and cleaning again! the gear

[JonO]

Thanks for the responses. I stopped by Coffey Sound and had a good conversation.

I am going to go with a Sennheiser 8070 with digital capsule- Gary Vahling recommended it. He used it to record waves during the US Open surf competition and said that the super low noise floor and digital clarity helped to cut down on the "white noise" that Tom was mentioning above. I'm also going to attempt to get production the rent a stereo Ambient hydrophone setup with the waterproof 788 housing. I don't know exactly what we would get, but hopefully it will be interesting. In addition I am going to rent a holophone 5.1 microphone to catch ambient waves/ jungle/ village sounds.

Senator, thanks for the advice- exactly the type of experiences I was hoping to hear about on this forum. I'll also be bringing a couple MKH-416's as backup and back-up zeppelins, and I'll clean everything off daily.

-Jon

[Tom Visser]

Competition surf can be different than the free-surflng sessions you typically see in surf docs. Hunting Beach is a relatively well coordinated event. Here in Hawaii, we host the Triple Crown event at Haleiwa, Sunset Beach (Baywatch), and Pipeline. Pipeline is ridiculous for the spectators. It is one of the world's "best" most consistent breaks within stone's throw of the beach. You could could definitely hear the contestants from the beach if they let out a yell at first reef pipe. In Tahiti, they build out huge platforms off-shore on the reef, for the judges and technical crew to operate the event. In the part of the world your talking about, it is not uncommon to hire private captains that take you out to "secret" spots for trips that resemble more of an expeditionary surf trip than a broadcast event. Your situation may depart significantly from what others may have experienced from contest surf.

I do agree on the MKH8070 as a choice as well as the 816. I wouldn't rule out the Sanken if you can keep it dry. The way that its non-interference tube rejection scheme works is certainly interesting and worth a second look. I don't think that self noise is the most critical factor here. It would be if you had to gain up real high to capture nuanced dialogue or nature sounds, but I imagine your gain won't be out of the ordinary out on the water, but every bit of signal to noise will certainly help.

Waterworld was shot a lot up in Kawaihae harbor, which is fairly protected and any of the larger swells get shadowed / blocked by Maui and Oahu, probable one of the reasons it was selected as a location in the first place. You'd be lucky if your doc conditions resemble anything similar to Kawaihae harbor, and as Senator can attest to, even that type of environment poses special challenges to the gear.

[Tom Visser]

Here's a few samples of Sumatra from a quick YouTube search.

South Sumatra (only in summer time - generally smaller)

North Sumatra (see the good shot of a support craft sitting calmly in the channel)

Here is a fan video of "Indonesia" a song done by a band led by one of my ex-bandmates... I can arrange for you guys to get the rights to this song and even try to dissuade my other friend from suing you as he actually co-wrote it.

Here's the same guys, having some fun...

[Mark Andrews]

That is quite a gig! Good luck JonO.

[DeNoize]

Hi there, this is an old thread but i was wondering if you could let us know how you went on this shoot Jon?

[JonO]

DeNoize, 

      The gig was a ton of fun. We drank loads of Bintangs, swam in the Indian Ocean, and shot some world-class surfing.

 

From a gear stand point. I ended up using a combination of shotgun mics, 416, MKH-50, and 8070 with the digital module. 

 

Recording the waves with the 8070 and digital module was moderately effective and Tom was correct in that the white noise of the water tends drown out the more subtle noises of the waves. I am from San Diego originally (now in Los Angeles) and have surfed for years and there is a definite sound that the bigger waves make when you are in the lineup and the wind is offshore sending spray off the back of the wave and the droplets hit the water. It's a cool sound. In order to try and capture it, I had a small boat motoring me around getting me as close as possible to the breaking waves. The biggest difficulty was that we had to cut the motor so I could record the sound, then turn the motor back on to get out of the way of the oncoming wave. This obviously made it hard to capture the audio cleanly. Rating the sound that I got from this technique on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being how I know it sounds to surf in real life, I achieved a 6 in capturing it. In hindsight I probably would ditch the 8070 for the Sanken CS3e. At the time I was not familiar with that mic, but after using it for the first time earlier this year I think it would have been a more useful mic all around. Occasionally I would have the 8070 on the boom pole getting ready to get into a smaller boat to go record waves and suddenly we had to record athletes getting ready to surf and an 8070 does not fit well on a surf boat with 8 foot high ceilings. The CS3e could have just lived on my boom pole 90 percent of the time.

 

I used an H2-Pro 7.1 surround sound mic for all ambient, nat sounds. It was unwieldy to operate and awkward to lug around but after listening back to the audio, I’m glad I did it. The sense of space from the surround sound shows up even when listening to it in stereo. I felt that it really immerses the viewer in the location.  I recorded soundscapes of Padang, a Mosque prayer service, and even a makeshift musical session with it. I’d purchase one if I had 5 grand laying around and I wasn’t sure what to do with it.

 

I also mic’d the surfers with Zaxcom TRX900’s and Countryman EMW stereo mics. The Zaxcoms were put in custom machined water

housing that I hid in the rash guards of the surfers.  This setup up was actually part of the production company’s equipment. Unfortunately as tends to happen when a non sound guy puts equipment together, there were issues. One of the water housing’s leaked and destroyed a TRX900, and it turns out the housing was not tested before the shoot. Also, the EMW microphones did not hold up to either the extremely salty water of that part of the Indian Ocean or the thrashing that they received being on a pro surfer in 10ft waves for hours at a time. I always rinsed them after a session, but about half of them did not make it back alive.

 

The surf film itself was for Billabong and was supposed to go to 4 more locations, but the other locations never happened. Billabong collapsed in 2012. I just recently ran into the DP on a commercial last week and he said that they used the footage for several ad campaigns. I haven’t seen them yet. 

 

-Jon Orr

[Cloud Wang]

thanks for sharing Jon. I'm very interested in seeing that your "custom machined water housing for zaxcom TRX900", do you have any photos that you can share with us ? i guess that's not an aqua bag,is it ? 

 

best

 

Cloud 

[JonO]

 

Here are some photos of the housing, the rashguard with lav mounted...and a Bintang just because

[ramallo]

Nice box JonO