Blocking the path of location noise problems

[Olle Sjostrom]

" Now if only Aaton made lights... "

ARRI does!

Yes but Aaton also makes the cantar, and all their cameras are extremely silent. The new penelope delta camera (when is it ever coming out?) is dead silent apparently, and this they wad vertical as a big feature with the camera. They care!

[Wandering Ear]

Sometimes, the boxes are completely quiet... other times, they squeal like a pig.

I don't know which models, but many of them have a "silent mode" switch. if the ballast is on set and making noise, ask your gaffer if the silent mode is on.

Wandering Ear

[RScott]

Acoustically, low freqs will flank over obstacles, but you can knock out a lot of the mids and highs with a board or obstacle. Generally, the more massive the better. If your grip dept. can handle the extra load and time, building a fort with cinder blocks would probably provide a great acoustic blockade. Rather than go for surrounding it, I'd just build out wider and higher making one face toward the set. Position the genny as close to the blockade as possible to increase the angle of coverage. Putting a vehicle in front of the blockade can raise the height of your wall as mentioned. Consider your blockade a low pass filter on your genny. Getting a "bigger shield" and making it more massive will drop the frequency.

Blankets won't do anything. I wouldn't spend the time.

The sound being sent away from set will end up somewhere, so if there are surrounding buildings, they very well may reflect back to set. Pool makes a good way to think of all the ways sound can get back to you.

Good luck!

[Marc Wielage]

I don't know which models, but many of them have a "silent mode" switch. if the ballast is on set and making noise, ask your gaffer if the silent mode is on.

Thanks for the tip! This was literally the last shot of the day (eight moves in 2 days), and I would have asked that if I had been thinking. It caught me by surprise, since it was the first and only time we had been close enough to the 10Ks to hear them! I'll definitely ask for that next time.

[Jesper Magnusson]

Put the Genny in the Box truck with the door open but pointing away from set. And maybe make sure no one is spening too much time in the box truck

It doesn't sound to fun to fill the van with the exhaust, but as a last resource it's worth knowing.

Acoustically, low freqs will flank over obstacles, but you can knock out a lot of the mids and highs with a board or obstacle. Generally, the more massive the better. If your grip dept. can handle the extra load and time, building a fort with cinder blocks would probably provide a great acoustic blockade. Rather than go for surrounding it, I'd just build out wider and higher making one face toward the set. Position the genny as close to the blockade as possible to increase the angle of coverage. Putting a vehicle in front of the blockade can raise the height of your wall as mentioned. Consider your blockade a low pass filter on your genny. Getting a "bigger shield" and making it more massive will drop the frequency.

Blankets won't do anything. I wouldn't spend the time.

The sound being sent away from set will end up somewhere, so if there are surrounding buildings, they very well may reflect back to set. Pool makes a good way to think of all the ways sound can get back to you.

Thanks for the advice! Blankets for shure doesn't help with the low end, but they do help a bit higher up (but maybe not much if the blockade is wide/high enough).

[Wandering Ear]

Thanks for the tip! This was literally the last shot of the day (eight moves in 2 days), and I would have asked that if I had been thinking. It caught me by surprise, since it was the first and only time we had been close enough to the 10Ks to hear them! I'll definitely ask for that next time.

In my experience, the "Silent" switch, really only does so much, they never get fully quiet. It does help though.

[Geoff Tirrell]

The small lite panel eng fresnel type lamps are awesome... But ... They have a fan. Not a serious one though but still a fan. Now if only Aaton made lights... (null)

Unfortunately those will probably become more common. Small to mid sized led fresnels have been starting to come into the market for the last couple of years and as far as I know all of them have fans. They are great for that they are and fix the throw issue with led lights and as they get more powerful they are likely to replace the less powerful HMI lights.

My prediction is it is only a matter of how long before they start creeping onto film sets.

[jrd456]

put a mic. outside of sound wall you've built and record it phase reversed on an isolated track. Make a note to editor to add this track as needed. in many circumstances it will decrease the generator level by 1/2. It actually works and you don't damage your dialogue.

J.D.

[Alexander Miles Burstein]

I don't know which models, but many of them have a "silent mode" switch. if the ballast is on set and making noise, ask your gaffer if the silent mode is on.

Wandering Ear

Just this weekend I had a gaffer tell me he wouldn't change the flicker free mode to silent mode on the ballast. He said it would change the lighting too much. I didn't argue, to my regret.

[Marc Wielage]

put a mic. outside of sound wall you've built and record it phase reversed on an isolated track. Make a note to editor to add this track as needed. in many circumstances it will decrease the generator level by 1/2. It actually works and you don't damage your dialogue.

That is not practical when the actors move around, and the acoustics picked up by the microphone(s) change. What can work is if the sound editor can grab a sample of the sound and then use something like iZotope RX to effectively filter and gate the unwanted noise out. I've been able to do that successfully on occasion, and it's similar to what you describe, only done solely in post. The dialog still modulates the noise to some degree, but that'll happen no matter what.

[ccsnd]

If the unwanted noise frequencies cross the wanted frequencies of dialog, there is nothing that can be done to that spectral part of the noise without disturbing the same spectral part of the dialog. Often times it makes the character sound like he or she is in a tunnel.

[Jesper Magnusson]

put a mic. outside of sound wall you've built and record it phase reversed on an isolated track. Make a note to editor to add this track as needed. in many circumstances it will decrease the generator level by 1/2. It actually works and you don't damage your dialogue.

That is not practical when the actors move around, and the acoustics picked up by the microphone(s) change. What can work is if the sound editor can grab a sample of the sound and then use something like iZotope RX to effectively filter and gate the unwanted noise out. I've been able to do that successfully on occasion, and it's similar to what you describe, only done solely in post. The dialog still modulates the noise to some degree, but that'll happen no matter what.

If the unwanted noise frequencies cross the wanted frequencies of dialog, there is nothing that can be done to that spectral part of the noise without disturbing the same spectral part of the dialog. Often times it makes the character sound like he or she is in a tunnel.

All good advice that I could see being used in certain situations. As Marc says I'm skeptical about phasing it out if the microphone is moved around much, but for more static shots it could be useful.

The sample to be used in izotope, would this be best recorded as a room tone, or the forementioned close mic?

[Harris K]

As room tone, sort of. The sample should be identical to the background noise under the dialogue.

[Wandering Ear]

Just this weekend I had a gaffer tell me he wouldn't change the flicker free mode to silent mode on the ballast. He said it would change the lighting too much. I didn't argue, to my regret.

I have a gaffer freind in town, who constantly threatens to turn all his ballasts off of silent mode when I get to picky about whiny lights.

I am not a lighting expert by any means, but I didn't think there was much of a difference in the way the light looks between modes. I could be totally wrong.

If he doesn't want to go on silent mode, then he should be happy to move the ballast off set so you can't hear it. If he doesn't want to work with you for the betterment of the movie ....... That's productions problem that you might want to bring to their attention?

Wandering Ear

[Martin Kittappa]

Did a shoot once where the genny was parked outside someones house- The home owner waited until all the lights were connected and ready to shoot before walking up to the AD and said 'I don't like your generator outside my house.... but for $600 I'll love it!' I think the production actually paid him off with $400 because it would take too long to move it and reset all the lights.

Guess you could get one of the neighbors to do this and the the production will either a: move the genny and you'll get wonderful sound or b: pay the guy off for which you've arranged a 50/50 cut- your sound will suck, but it won't be your fault and you'll have some cash in your pocket!

[studiomprd]

" it would take too long to move it and reset all the lights. "

is this a real movie generator?? no need to reset the lights...

[Christian Spaeth]

Over here (EU) there is no silent mode on Arris, but if it means switching from flicker free to to 50 Hz (in our case) definitely decreases the HMI hum to mostly bearable levels. I usually ask for that when I hear that hum. With Arri HMIs above 1K the hum often is louder when they are turned on initially and becomes much lower after a couple of minutes. Using extension cords to put the blue power boxes away form the set helps, too as the hum can come from these boxes. Dimmers that are set too low also produce humming noises. Phase inverting doesn't work well in my experience.

[Whit Norris]

Speaking of noisy lights. We will have some new ones to deal with very soon on the set. At NAB Arri was showing its new LED lights that will be replacing some of the smaller HMIs. Guess what... they have a fan in them. The fan was adjustable and had different settings but would be on most of the time. Because of the noise on the NAB show floor I could not tell how loud they were. I would say they would be a problem on a quiet set, and even more of a issue if they were hung above a set where the boom would be working from. One positive note is that they do not put out that much heat compared to what we are normally use to on a set.

Did anyone else see these at NAB?

Cheers,

Whit

[soundslikejustin]

Did anyone else see these at NAB?

Whit

I saw them in a video (didn't make it to NAB) and lauded the fact that we'd soon not have to deal with flapping gels. Didn't think about the fan. Come to think of it, flapping gels are only really an issue outside, where you're less likely to hear a fan...

I'm sure with the Alexa fan being so quiet, that Arri would be on top of whatever potential noise these lights would make.

[Whit Norris]

I'm sure with the Alexa fan being so quiet, that Arri would be on top of whatever potential noise these lights would make.

Justin

I am not convinced with what I saw and heard at NAB with their lights, but the camera is great.

Whit

[soundslikejustin]

Just seems strange that they wouldn't flag it as an issue, and solve it. Are the lights shipping or was the unit on display a prototype/demo model, if you know?

[Marc Wielage]

Using extension cords to put the blue power boxes away form the set helps, too as the hum can come from these boxes. Dimmers that are set too low also produce humming noises. Phase inverting doesn't work well in my experience.

The evil blue boxes were the ones killing us on the shoot last week. They look like this:

I'm sure with the Alexa fan being so quiet, that Arri would be on top of whatever potential noise these lights would make.

They probably forgot to read that Red email! (Sorry, it's a call-back to a previous joke about the Arri exec reading all of Red exec Jim Jannard's emails.)

[Geoff Tirrell]

Speaking of noisy lights. We will have some new ones to deal with very soon on the set. At NAB Arri was showing its new LED lights that will be replacing some of the smaller HMIs. Guess what... they have a fan in them. The fan was adjustable and had different settings but would be on most of the time. Because of the noise on the NAB show floor I could not tell how loud they were. I would say they would be a problem on a quiet set, and even more of a issue if they were hung above a set where the boom would be working from. One positive note is that they do not put out that much heat compared to what we are normally use to on a set.

Did anyone else see these at NAB?

Cheers,

Whit

These have been around for a couple of years in various lesser forms. I have seen them show up on most all of the local eng uplink trucks. I had a chance to talk to one of the truck ops a bout them and use one on a camera side job. I have to say I like them especially as a replacement to the lower wattage HMIs. You can run them off an anton-baur brick and the throw has been getting better meaning they can be placed farther away from the subject then before. Actually a couple of the models I have seen with fresnel type lenses are really nice just pricy, and yes the fan which was not too bad really no worse than the one on most laptops.

The problem as was explained to me is that while everybody thinks less generate no heat that isn't quite the case and when you use them in array like we need to to put out concentrated higher wattage light they can really heat up. Which would be fine except that the leds themselves and the circuit boards holding them together are plastic and therefore subject to melting.

That said I am a full believer that these are the wave of tomorrow, and while I am not selling my tungsten light kit anytime soon I will not be buying more or any HMI kits either.

[chrisnewton]

Just this weekend I had a gaffer tell me he wouldn't change the flicker free mode to silent mode on the ballast. He said it would change the lighting too much. I didn't argue, to my regret.

He's full of shit, and lazy to boot. He's likely the same guy that rolls up gels during a take.

[Whit Norris]

This is the model line that was at NAB that contained fans.