Upgrading my DAW control surface

[Tom Visser]

I am currently cautiously looking at increasing my post capabilities and the thought occurred to me to bone up my DAW controller. I currently use an Alesis MasterControl at home. For the price, it is quite nice and feels like a solid piece of kit. Generally, for ADR and mixing, we'll either be at the main studio or on set. At the studio, we have an SSL4000E/G, a great console, but of course not a control surface. What I find that I do, if I need to do any type of moderate or major editing, I do that all at home, and then bring in the client for a final attended mix at the studio at which point I'm just mixing stems together for the final client approved print. We're talking commercials and indy shorts. I'm now looking at moving into indy features, and of course this bumps up my needs considerably.

Within the realm of possibility...

All indicators seem to point at the C24. It has everything I need for assembling the edit and may not even need to work at the studio, except for the final client mix - could potentially screen that at home too, although only for the right client. Negatives seem to be bad mic pres - could care less, and a poor monitoring section, although reading more, seems that a lot of people are blowing that out of proportion. I'd have to purchase some sort of interface, but doesn't need to be extravagant. Heck, If my MasterControl works in conjunction with the C24, might just keep that on board for use on the couch as a mini-locator style surface and for its audio I/O.

The Allen & Heath GS-R24M seems intriguing, but for the most part, its DAW control features are really only limited to fader levels. Although that is the most important DAW control feature, to compare it to the C24 seems a bit unfair. I do love the fact that it has a real mixer inside, good preamps, and doubles as an audio interface, so the $10K price tag actually reflects a higher value than the C24 (which I would likely purchase used). It would be great for music remotes, live sessions, you know, all the fun stuff that doesn't actually earn me any money. My head says no... but I still look...

I think the mothership would be the SSL Matrix. I love the SSL'ness of it, even though in baby quantities. I don't have a lot of analog outboard, so the routing / patching doesn't really do a whole lot for me. I do like that it has a real monitoring section, something I could compare to even high end units. I like having the analog mixer, although for my application it too wouldn't get a lot of use. Obviously it is not going to be as capable as the C24 from a controller perspective, but I feel it hits the major bases. Even though the next step up costs the price of a house (AWS), the baby Matrix is still a lot of money! I've seen used ones go for an almost sensible price, I could wait months or years waiting for the right price to come around on the used market though, I'm looking to buy maybe mid to end of summer.

Anything else I'm missing? I'm pretty sure I'd hate any of the big Yamaha digital boards / controllers and really looked hard as the Tascams, but at the end of the day, I think it is limited to the above 3. With prices of the C24, it really almost seems like a no-brainer.

What does everyone else here use? FYI, Icon is out. All I could afford is getting a basic Command-ES8, and that doesn't get me as far as the cheaper lower-end C24, so I'm just not at that target market. The C24 would pay for itself in a year if I don't have to buy more gear. The SSL would take a couple of years to pay off. I have a feeling the C24 will be worth zilch after I use it into the ground. The SSL will probably be maintainable for many years to come, which is something to consider. Too bad the Nucleus doesn't have a decent monitoring section.

[ccsnd]

The Euphonix (which avid has bought) surfaces are pretty nice. They are also expandable.

I don't think consoles like the c/24 have very much time left with support from avid. I know PT10 was the last supported version for the control 24. I don't think the c/24 is going to be too much farther behind it. The new Eucon protocol is quickly becoming a standard. (unless you are apogee)

[Olle Sjostrom]

+1 for euphonics! Wonderfully flexible. Speaks pt and nuendo as well

(null)

[Tom Visser]

They seem sort of cheap and flimsy. Also no monitor controller calabilities. Only 8 channels per bucket... But they are portable which is nice and I could actually sit that on top of the SSL4000 if I needed to do something in the studio, something to consider. I guess I'm looking more at the Nucleus, maybe I shouldn't count it out so soon, would probably just have to bypass it as a monitor controller.

[ccsnd]

Most people I know with digi consoles do not use their monitoring section. I wouldn't look at the euphonix lack of monitoring as a down side. It's not there, and therefore, can't be bad.

They are the most versatile surfaces I have worked with in a while. I can click from PT to Reason and back and forth and the console will follow. The touchscreen on the artist mix is brilliant. Also, I think they are well built and in my opinion do not feel cheaply made. Also they are fairly inexpensive.

Newer full eucon consoles are mega expensive.

[Tom Visser]

OK, haven't ever laid hands on one, so don't know for sure how they differential themselves from the other protocols. I do like the numeric keypad, sort of odd that the C24 and Matrix do not have this. It's just a little thing, but I spend an awful lot of time spotting clips via timecode and would be good for recalling markers. Anyhoos, would a Transport and Mix(es) combo be a good workable system, or is the control a necessary feature in order to leverage the features of the system? I'm not a big fan of touch screens and the transport and keypad on the "Transport" seems of much higher quality than the mini version that is on the right of the "Control" unit. Could you use the 4 faders on the Control unit as subgroup only or something? So that when you bank on the Mix unit(s) the 4 faders on the Control stay locked onto a designated subgroup?

There is just something nice about having your monitor section built right into you main work surface. It's such an often tweaked control, I appreciate having it all integrated together. I used to have a Grace monitor controller, and as nice as it was, it just seemed a little awkward having a separate table top box to mess with.

[ccsnd]

Anything you can think to do with the euphonix gear you can probably do. The transport and the mix packs will work just fine, but I would suggest the artist mix over it.

[Tom Visser]

So I just sat through and watched a bunch of videos on the Euphonix Artist products... great technology, highly flexible, but I'm 99% sure that they are not for me. All the shift and double / multiple presses, is just too highly technical of a workflow. Maybe I'm a neanderthal when it comes to technology and control surfaces, but I'd rather have things laid out more linearly and more of a button for button function. In this respect, the C|24 looks much more attractive to me. I also dislike the tiny little OLED displays that are flat with the surface and not larger LEDs that are canted up at an angle like the C|24. I'm trying to look at my monitor less and look at picture / listen more... but with an occasional reference down at the meters. When is the next big product release? NAMM? Probably going to intensify my search towards the end of summer...

[MatthewFreedAudio]

One really nice plus about the Euphonix Artist Series is the customization. You can assign nearly any soft button to do whatever you want and put your most commonly used function right at your fingertips.

I used Nuendo 5 with the MC Control and additional 8 bank fader and it worked perfectly. The editing and mixing went very smoothly.

[ccsnd]

I agree and would rather work on a c/24, however it doesn't have surround panning and again, who knows how much longer avid will support it. if you buy one now, later you could be stuck on older protools versions just to have the ability to use your controller.

For example, if protools 10 is the last working version with the control/24, and protools 11 has as many new awesome things in it as 10 did, you're stuck using 10 so you can use your console. The c/24 is not too far behind the control24 in terms of support.

again I agree the c/24 is a better surface, but It's nearing the end of it's life span. The eucon surfaces are new, still very good, fairly inexpensive, and will be supported for a long time. (it's a brand new protocol)

[nysounds]

Have to give a plug for the Euphonix as well. I use 3 artist mix's, 1 control and 1 transport in the studio and the Pro Tools controll I have is great. I run some pretty large track counts and have never had a problem getting around with these units. For monitor control, I use the Blue Sky 5.1 system and a One Knob for alternate pair of monitors. Never touch the monitor section on the control.

[Tom Visser]

So something interesting, according to a local dealer, C24 are no longer available from distribution channels, although not officially outright discontinued. Would historically Digi / Avid announce a new product about now or is the C24 simply being retired without a direct replacement? (like the 003). An Avid take on something like the GS-R24m would be interesting, better yet if it were modular / expandable. I dream of one product to replace C24, 003, and Artist series addressing needs of both project studios and mid-level prefessional facilities. Thunderbolt master section combining an HD Omni with the Artist Control. (perfectly useable as a standalone monitor controller and interface) Thunderbolt buckets for channel expansion... a bit larger format that the shift happy Artist line in its current form.

[soundtrane]

They seem sort of cheap and flimsy.

stepper motors on the faders make a lot of noise...

[ccsnd]

I think the newest console is the system 5, but I think that is more meant to replace the icon systems.

I think they are trying to really push their euphonix acquisition.

[Jason A]

I just finished a feature 5.1 mix using the Artist control, Mc Mix, HD Native/Omni. Really surprised at how accurate the touch screen surround panning was. I was expecting to not even be able to use it, but it actually saved a ton of time. Also, the Studio Monitor Express software is suppose to be functional with pro tools soon which would allow you monitor/talkback control from your Artist Controller.

[ramallo]

The Euphonix are nice but have a few drawbacks: some have a motor noise (I had a noise on my first units), some units have flying fader caps (by turning a bit the fader hang resolve this issue), the V1 have a defective inverter screens with premature failures, and the V1 and some V2 have a crap plastic surface (My two first units was broken alone, I cross my fingers with the newest).

But appears that lastest ones are ok.

In other hand, works like a charm with Nuendo.

[Tom Visser]

I'm really intrigued by the Neyrinck Pro Tools app for iPad, and in that respect, relieves a lot of pressure off of the control surface to do this advanced stuff. Therefore, my search has narrowed down to the Allen & Heath GS-R24m or the SSL Matrix. I probably won't be looking seriously until towards the end of summer, so maybe something new will appear on the radar between now and then. The SSL Nucleus is not completely out of the running either, although falls short as a monitor controller.

[ccsnd]

The SSL is good as well.

[Jay Rose]

I do like the numeric keypad... I spend an awful lot of time spotting clips via timecode and would be good for recalling markers.

I couldn't live without the keypad either. Why not have a small USB numeric pad along with whatever controller you settle on?

[Tom Visser]

I'm OCD, so things like this bug me.

If the Sony DMX-R100 could be used as a DAW controller, that would be my be all end all desk.

[Bondelev]

I reviewed the Neyrinck V-Control app in the CAS Quarterly a few quarters ago. I use it a lot. But it is no replacement for a real set of faders.

[Tom Visser]

I reviewed the Neyrinck V-Control app in the CAS Quarterly a few quarters ago. I use it a lot. But it is no replacement for a real set of faders.

I feel the same, but using the app in conjunction with a controller, it makes things that had limited functionality, such as the GS-R24, more intriguing where without the app, I don't think I would have considered it as an option in the first place. Even though the app primarily is a fader panel, I feel its strength is in the plugin control and other non-fader operations, and agree that nothing replaces a set of tactile long-throw faders.