Isn't is standard to get a full kit rental day for a camera test day?

[Izen Ears]

This is a camera test day, I guess to ensure a smooth workflow with this newfangled camera-of-the-hour the Sony F64. So they want me there to run sound so they have something for sync tests.

The only other time I've been asked for this I charged (and received) for a rental day on the sound kit, in addition to the union "mini" for labor. But this dude got all crazy and started harping about how I wouldn't help him and do him a favor for a couple hours. He's fine with paying for the labor but he balked at the kit fee. I politely informed him that it was standard if I roll sound that I get a day's kit rental. It was unpleasant. We haven't even started shooting yet and he's talking about relationships? Since when does "building relationships" mean taking advantage of me? Got me all wound up that douche.

So (deep breath) anyway, what's the standard here? Test day or not isn't it standard to charge a full day's rental?

Dan Izen

[Olle Sjostrom]

Of course it is! Why shouldnt it be! Theres the friendship, and there's the professional side. Sure you could charge less, but not NOT charge! Id rather give myself away than my gear

(null)

[Joshua Anderson]

You should get a full kit rate.

Yes, your kit for that day will probably be smaller than when you start shooting. I've driven into Manhattan from Brooklyn on a scooter with a backpack filled with a recorder, a portable mixer, a microphone, a Time Code Gen box, a slate and cables. No cart - just set up on a table. But if I itemized that rental from a rental house for a day, I'm sure my day rate would have been competitive.

Your producer is certainly free to rent the gear from a local sound house.

From your end, what I would keep in mind - and this will help in explaining the gear needed for rental - is what you are actually testing. I'm sure your producer is not happy to have you there (or to pay to have you there) from the outset. My guess is that someone from post requested your presence to make sure everything syncs up. So you need to be able to recreate the time code set up that post will see once real shooting begins. That's why you need the recorder, time code slates, jam boxes, a mic for audible sync, everything.

The first time I did a movie on the Alexa camera I tested a few radio mic transmitters and comtek receivers near the camera. The camera was very new at the time and we had heard rumors of the camera being very susceptible to RF. We tested it, not so much because of audio being recorded on the camera, but in the chance the RF could interfere with the picture.

In the end, even though your producer might not be happy about having to pay for sound to be present for the camera test, he should still pay for the gear rental if it's to be used.

[Q]

I wonder if they are getting the camera for free?

[old school]

I don't do films or TV any longer but I would say you are correct in renting your gear for that day. I would point out to the PM all favors or deals are struck before a shoot, not after.

CrewC

[studiomprd]

Of course your gear gets paid, like you, it is working.

[Eric Toline]

"it's not personal, it's business"

Eric

[RPSharman]

If it's for a sync/workflow test, I show up with my 744T, a slate and lockit jam cable, an XLR cable and a microphone on a pole with a c-stand mount.

I honestly don't believe I charged for that gear on the couple of occasions I have done it. But I don't remember.

I have charged for tests, full price on gear and rate, if it's just that. But if it's part of prep for a longer job, I'm inclined to take the full day of labor for the hour or two I'm there, and give them some sort of a break on the gear. Make up for it somewhere else. Why piss off the UPM before you even start the job?

Robert

[stevegrider]

I take things like that on a case by case basis. If you're doing a test for a show you're about to do seven months on, and you're setting the specs that will save you and post time and money, I would cut them a break if they asked. Start the relationship off on a good note, and make a lot of money together. If they want you to come in to do a test for a one day shoot, stick to your full rate. It's easier to give somebody 108 days of work for 107 days pay than it is to give somebody 2 days work for 1 days pay.

[Izen Ears]

Thank you for confirming that this guy was trying to take advantage of me. He didn't even ask nicely. I'm glad he got all mad when I stuck to my guns. Then he kept getting mad, like, really mad. Then, I am ashamed to admit, I caved. After he wouldn't let me get a word in edgewise, I did yell back that he must stop being disrespectful and interrupting me, and that I didn't need his stupid job. He got very calm after that. It's a good thing this is a short movie (31 days) because I can't help that I'll stew on this the whole time. I'll still do my usual good job but I just won't care as much if the sound sucks. Hopefully I won't be further abused because I'll probably act unprofessional and walk off his dumb ass movie. Goddammit I feel really taken advantage of. I sort of regret posting this but whatever, hopefully someone else will learn from this crap.

But again thanks for confirming what I suspected, that I should have just not let him get to me with his yelling, and just calmly said "No, I cannot give away the kit for you. You are free to find another sound team, or pay me what is my due. My kit does not need a test, I have literally spend years setting it up, therefore this does not count as a prep day."

Never again, and if you're reading this - don't let it happen to you either! Sharman I am all for helping friends, but I don't know this guy and he should know better. So "f" him and his stupid movie. At least I'm getting decent rates. Bad way to start though.

Dan Izen

[Marc Wielage]

"My kit does not need a test, I have literally spend years setting it up, therefore this does not count as a prep day."

Well... I see both sides of it. If they asked very nicely, and it was just a camera test for a couple of hours, I could see giving them a half-rate day. That's assuming one mike, one slate, one recorder, and a timecode jam box. I would be much more inclined to do this for a 30-day project than a 2-day project.

But if they act like a-holes, screw 'em. There's no excuse for abuse.

The F65 should be a very straightforward camera. Anyone who wants to read the manual can see download it at this link:

http://pro.sony.com/...ension=original

Timecode connections are pretty much the same as the older F35. Interestingly, I see no mention of audio inputs on this camera (!!!), so maybe Sony has given up and just accepted double-system for production.

[johngooch]

Every workflow is different. Every camera is different, every post house is different. I prefer a test. UPMs don't care about a test. However, If the editors want a test with sound- then they should get a real test. I was asked to do this recently . Full day rate- full package rate . As per the DPs request( who was huge friend to the sound dept ) , we tested every slate, recorder, camera and syncbox. The camera files and sound files went thru the process just as if it was a regular shoot day. It could have been a 1 hour test, it could have been a 8- 10 hour test. They certainly were not concerned with the hours i was committing for the "test" It was a regular work day.

The editors were happy with the test, however they still changed telecine houses one day into the show...... oh well.

[RPSharman]

Dan,

I would bet that if any mixer in LA had that conversation the way you describe, the UPM would have found another mixer. With so many people moving to your neck of the woods, you might not get away with it the next time.

The UPM wasn't asking you to bring all your gear, and I trust you didn't turn down another paying job to do the test.

He might have been agressive, but sometimes it pays to be the reasonable one in the long run.

The next time, this UPM might have a much less crappy job that you desperately want.

By no means am I saying give away your gear, but you can rent all the gear required for a sync test for a couple of hundred bucks. It's not unreasonable for a UPM to ask for a break, given you're about to do a movie. And a 31-day movie doesn't usually have many dollars to spare.

Robert

[Izen Ears]

Okay Robert you happy Canadian you make a good point given the information I posted. Perhaps I did not include the most insulting details. I'm sure you'd agree that generally, when you call your sound guy on a DAY OFF, 2 hours before your surprise call, asking him to gift you his entire kit (it was loaded on the trailer already) for free because camera hasn't got their shit worked out, one would think "not yelling, insulting, or accusing" would be the best style to choose.

I did a few camera test days for Abe Lincoln: Vampire Hunter and those days were my only days on that movie, yet there wasn't even a discussion about kit fee. I got it! I've done several other camera test days and I got the kit fee for those too. I wasn't out of line.

This dude was asking me two major favors, to come in on a day off (with 2 hours notice) and bring the entire kit for free, and it turned sour when all I did was politely tell him it was standard to charge a kit fee. You with your famous sunny disposition probably would have just sucked it up, given away your kit, and been happy about it. Not me. I don't like it when anyone talks to me that way in any capacity of my life, forget about the job! Call me a crusader. Truth is I almost walked right then and there just because of his style. I've never walked off any job ever, not once, but I was ready to this time because he was SO douchy while he was asking me for two huge favors. You're probably right that if this had been LA, I might have gotten replaced. Does that make him right? No! Would that have made me sad? Definitely not!

There are enough nice local UPMs out here to work for who treat me with respect, in fact I turned down several because I'd already committed to this, that I just don't need this guy or his stupid movie. Is that cocky? No, I have had an absolutely *stellar* relationship with literally every UPM I've ever worked for (except one on a 2nd unit gig), and none of them have ever treated me like this dude did. He wasn't asking for a break - he was insulting me and hurling accusations as if I were some bitch punching bag. I've done fairly well for myself in a fairly short time, and it wasn't because I've allowed myself to be taken advantage of. It's because I've worked with people to find solutions and treated everyone (especially PAs) with respect.

I read all these horror stories about terrible producers and horrible treatment and insults endured by the sound dept., but I've been skilled enough to avoid them and still be successful. I'm not going to call it luck because it's not, it's me trusting my gut.

Here are some basic truths: I don't need to work for an asshole; I don't need to be insulted; I don't need work so badly I'm happy bending over for some insecure douche. If I were starving in LA it wouldn't have made a difference, I'd still have yelled back.

Dan Izen

[Mark Vesterskov]

Amen, Dan. Could not agree more.

[jeoh]

Sorry to hear about your problem Dan.

I think you were totally right in charging for your kit! The more we give things away, the more it will be asked for and then eventually taken for granted. Stand fast! Even if we are in LA then all the more reason to stand your ground, for the good of us ALL! Producers talk to each other and exchange stories of how much they can get away with. I understand feelings of nervousness about losing the job to another mixer, but making deals like that screw us all in the long run!

UPM are used to having frank and heated discussions. It's part of the job! Just be Zen and carry on. Thank you for standing up and saying NO!

Hooray to you.

[taylormadeaudio]

Hey Dan,

FWIW, I not only charge a kit fee for cam. test days, but also prep days -- they're often the same day, but I don't think you're unreasonable in charging a kit fee for any day your gear is needed. That said, Robert also has a point in that a certain amount of diplomacy and flexibility might be worthwhile, even if it's not particularly warranted... perhaps something as simple as offering a reduced rate for the gear that day. I can totally see your point as well though -- if someone is gonna take an adversarial stand like you say this UPM or Line Producer has, then they probably deserve a bit of static... they definitely should have asked you to do them a favor if they wanted you to turn up on a day off with gear for free -- that is a lot to ask, regardless of the budget.

~tt

[Izen Ears]

Sorry my last post was so defensive, I'm just still riled up. Robert I know you to be a more enlightened fella than I am so I didn't mean to dis you when you're really speaking from a whole higher world view. Taylormade you also speak from this higher plane of thought!

Mr "jeohowarth" I did actually cave in ultimately. I wasn't super gracious about it either.

What I REALLY should have done, is wait for a space to speak, then inform him that he can call me back when he feels like speaking courteously, then hung up on him. That would have been awesome. Oh well, still many steps to enlightenment for me!

Dan Izen

[Tyler Faison]

I've often been curious about how their job works. I mean, for an LP to act like this they must really have something on the line. I have to assume that these guys get some kind of commission for every penny they don't spend or something, right? What's their incentive? Or do some of them just really enjoy being a-holes on a power trip?

[MatthewFreedAudio]

I agree 100% with you Dan. Any half way decent UPM or Line Producer should know a gear fee is charged for prep days or any other day that gear is being used.

He has no business asking for a favor in this capacity. It is a business transaction and he is out of line.

I've run in to very similar situations where they want prep days for free or such a silly, reduced rate but I always hold my ground. It sets a better precident to ALWAYS charge for everything because if you don't it only screws over yourself and every other sound mixer out there.

So, for those of you giving away everything and the kitchen sink...just stop. Got it? Stop.

[Toy Robot]

I agree with Dan here. I see Robert's point, as well as ~tt's point, but 'diplomacy' is a word often used as a veil for allowing yourself to get screwed.

Why should we give anything away, especially when we already work 12+ hour days? I love what I do, but coming in to work on a day off for free is not part of my career advancement agenda. I'll come in with a smile on my face and ready to work, but they're going to pay. Favors to other people do not pay my rent.

Which reminds me that people keep mixing business with friendship and keep doing favors for people. Order a pizza the night before the Super Bowl and tell the delivery guy you're not going to pay because you're ordering a pizza tomorrow, but today you just want to make sure he can make it properly and it will taste great during the Super Bowl.

And lastly, regarding favors: I understand well that being likeable is possibly a greater part of this business than the technical aspect of what we do. That's just the way the world works. But I intend to remain likeable without giving away the farm.

[Den Nic]

Charge for the kit for sure, I'm sure the camera is being paid for on that extra day.

[RPSharman]

Dan,

It's all good. I'm just posing a different opinion based on the information given. I know you have been successful. A big fish in a small pond. But the pond is now an ocean, with more fish arriving every day. Big ones. I'm just trying to offer a bit of friendly advice.

There seems to be a couple of valid opinions here, but I want to be sure that everyone understands that Dan was called in during prep (although technically a day off) to be paid his full union day of wages to perform a work flow test. That is a pretty standard request.

Perhaps the UPM was out of line in his approach, and was out of line in demanding the gear be free. But it's not an unreasonable question for him to ask for a break on the gear for a quick test requiring a very small portion of the package, given that Dan is mixing the whole job.

Again this is not a one-day job. But if it was, the gear required for the test could be rented at full retail from Coffey or LSC for under $200. I would hope Dan is making twice that for rental on his movie. Full rate for gear on this test would not be the same as full rate for a feature package, and asking for such seems unreasonable to me.

Camera rentals work differently, and I'm sure production didn't pay "extra" rental to run these tests during prep. They did pay their ACs, as they also paid Dan, for their time. There was no dispute over labor.

People deal with asshole bosses all the time. You can choose to quit the job or deal with it. But this is a small business, and learning to say "no" with a bit more diplomacy is wise.

Now if we want a real discussion about how we screw ourselves, let's talk again about coming in early and working off the clock.

Robert

[Izen Ears]

I'm not a big fish! I'd be okay with medium-to-small, I just have a loud mouth. Voice, I mean heh. The big fish always get flown in for those jobs, there's only three Louisiana dudes in that club. So I'm definitely a small fish with a big voice, thanks to this wonderful forum. Please no one think of me as a big fish, I'm very, very small. (But I am far from starving!)

I bet you're right that these new mixers (that have moved here because they can't find work in LA) would have probably just said fine. That's their choice, and more power to em I guess.

This dude swore that no camera gear involved in this test day was getting any rental, that all rentals didn't start until actual shooting. If I find that to be a lie I will invoice for the test day, and if he doesn't pay I'll have to walk. It doesn't have to be a big emotional scene like the phone call was, I'm fine with quietly packing up and leaving. I'll give him a week's notice, and go home pretty happy to not be working for liars and assholes. I've never had to do anything like that before and I realize it could affect my rep, but I just can't work for a liar.

Although I actually don't think he's an asshole but he clearly doesn't know how to handle the pressure. I think since I've been all smiles and "good times" (which is my usual face!) I must have looked like an easy target to get out some stress.

It's funny, but when I first met with the dude my "yellow flag" alert went on. There was no tangible reason for this but my gut was telling me this was possibly going to be a tough show. Judging at how stressed out the camera dudes were on the test day, it might just be.

My form of revenge is going to be that I do a great job and give no one else any troubles. Kind of a weird revenge strategy but I think it's best. Otherwise I'll just waste energy being mad at this guy.

I am definitely not going to take this again and I hope none of you do either!

Dan Izen

[Izen Ears]

Heh oh yeah sorry about the misspelling in the topic title, obviously I mean "it" not "is." Couldn't figure out a way to change that. Pretty funny...