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At the risk of sounding dumb.. and believe me.. whatever.

Why doesn't anyone create a second tier guild? Something super easy to get into (given you have a certain number of years behind you plus a certain gear minimum), with super low overhead cost, and that would set a simple rate sheet for minimums. SAG was able to achieve something like this where it simply became impossible for any small studio at every low budget to not hire any SAG actor. I mean, we don't need another bureaucratic nightmare, just something that sets a rate sheet, so that all sound mixers to at least get those rates.. or at least something that tells newbies what the proper rates are.

I totally agree that it might hamper (what you can get), but laws on the books about minimum wage, don't effect salaries of working professionals around California.

Seems like united we can fight the bottom feeders. no?

-Richard

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and they can't add because $450 + $200 is $650, not $600

haha I was wondering if anyone would notice that. They followed up with...

"I budgeted 1500 for the sound recordists and 500 for a boom operator it's a 4 day shoot first day is a half day."

For a Mandy's/CL job that isn't that bad, but not worth making the 4 hour drive and finding accommodations.

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Why doesn't anyone create a second tier guild? Something super easy to get into (given you have a certain number of years behind you plus a certain gear minimum), with super low overhead cost, and that would set a simple rate sheet for minimums.

Well, all the sound union can do is set minimum rates based on Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3, and so on. But we know there are many union members (in all unions, not just 695) who will occasionally do non-union work.

I think starting a union from scratch is very hard, since there is a state approval practice, elections, plus the real-world problem of trying to get everybody to agree what to do. I've been involved before (twice) in trying to organize two post-production houses, and there's a ton of headaches just in calming people down, getting them to agree on real-world issues, and also making them not get paralyzed with fear. In the last non-successful union organizing effort I was involved with, several of the employees were convinced the company would cut our pay, simply because the union minimum was lower than what we were making. They didn't get my point that the main issues were about benefits, tenure, and having a say in who gets fired or laid off. Within ten years, all of the people I had had the discussion with -- including me -- were laid off. (Completely unrelated to the union-organizing attempt.)

I could see an "Association of Independent Sound Professionals" or something, kind of like the little clubs started by wedding videographers and people like that, where you could charge X dollars for membership, have everybody sign a contract agreeing to certain rates... but there's always going to be a moron who will do the job for $50 plus a Subway® tuna.

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Why doesn't anyone create a second tier guild? Something super easy to get into (given you have a certain number of years behind you plus a certain gear minimum), with super low overhead cost, and that would set a simple rate sheet for minimums.

To be blunt, unless every single decent mixer is in one of the unions, there is no reason for production companies to even acknowledge them existing. You can say "well this is the standard rate based on my union" and the producer can say "great, I'll call somebody else". The whole bottom feeder problem will still exist. Somebody could book as many days as they are willing to work by setting rates $50/day under (either) union.

The best thing is to just say no to crap rates. Few things feel better than saying NO at work. I have gotten a bit personal in explaining what kind of $ I have invested in my gear, and I can't ever pay it back if I accept those kind of kit fees. Filling your calendar with crap jobs doesn't leave openings for the good work to come in.

I had a recent inquiry where they told me they only have $XXX/day for mixer and gear and wanted to make sure they got good sound because previous projects were a major audio let down for the client. I got to explain to them that they wanted a really extensive kit for that rate (provided rental numbers) and that left nothing for labor. I think there are some people that are green enough that they genuinely don't realize what a real mixer with real gear is going to cost when it is more than a single person on camera, or jobs where all the dialog is done later in a studio. They botch that when they bid on the job, so they hire a cheap mixer. Their low bid wins the job instead of it going to a company that is paying proper labor+kit to the crew. That well paying company is getting less work, so they are not as busy, which means none of us are as busy... and back to the downward spiral.

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haha I was wondering if anyone would notice that. They followed up with...

"I budgeted 1500 for the sound recordists and 500 for a boom operator it's a 4 day shoot first day is a half day."

For a Mandy's/CL job that isn't that bad, but not worth making the 4 hour drive and finding accommodations.

At least in the US, indie films are an anomaly. It's not uncommon for department heads to make $200/day on a $500k+ film. Boom ops get the next tier down. Kit fees are negotiable, but on those jobs, line producers expect a serious discount for a "4 week kit rental" based on the deals they get in every other department (camera, lights, folding tables, trucks etc). Even "usual suspect" sound dealers offer 3 day weeks and 2 or 3 week months for kit as printed rates. It's possible it can be negotiated for less. It's frighteningly headachy to explain those kits do not have all the little bits and adapters and whatever that your own kit has, let alone every other argument for bringing your owned gear to set when the person you are talking to is only staring at a budget.

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I could see an "Association of Independent Sound Professionals" or something, kind of like the little clubs started by wedding videographers and people like that, where you could charge X dollars for membership, have everybody sign a contract agreeing to certain rates...

That would run into, believe it not, anti-trust laws and be illegal.

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...

Even "usual suspect" sound dealers offer 3 day weeks and 2 or 3 week months for kit as printed rates. It's possible it can be negotiated for less. It's frighteningly headachy to explain those kits do not have all the little bits and adapters and whatever that your own kit has, let alone every other argument for bringing your owned gear to set when the person you are talking to is only staring at a budget.

If someone asks for a 3-day week (I don't recall it ever happening), I'd be delighted to comply.

I'd be more than happy to give them a 3-day rate off of proper rate card rental rates. Most of us would come out money ahead at these figures.

Let's see, for a cart gig, 2% of $80,000 is $1600 a day and a 3-day week is $4800. $4800 divided by 7 comes out to about $685 a day for the gear rental. Yep, I could live with that.

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To be blunt, unless every single decent mixer is in one of the unions, there is no reason for production companies to even acknowledge them existing. You can say "well this is the standard rate based on my union" and the producer can say "great, I'll call somebody else". The whole bottom feeder problem will still exist. Somebody could book as many days as they are willing to work by setting rates $50/day under (either) union.

I disagree John. Low pay sound mixers are not doing crap jobs because they like them.. low pay sound mixers are doing jobs because they feel thats the best they can do. If everyone else has banded together, and said (and shown) that they only accept this amount of pay, sound mixers who do those shitty jobs, will start to realize that they are getting "the scraps", and that something is wrong with them for being on the outside taking these scrap jobs.

You say, there's nothing better then turning down work.. YES, this is true there WILL always be crap productions that we have NO control over.. the purpose of banding together is NOT to make the crap productions change.. but to put the power back into our hands to tell new sound mixers that they DON'T have to take the scraps. By banding together, it tightens that bond between us and teaches new sound mixers that same feeling that you and I get by saying NO.

But also.. think about this.. The more other sound mixers talk about getting lots of money on a gig, it makes the sound mixer who took that crap job, just a little bit more pissed. Making a guid, pledging a minimum for work, but making it easy to join, would be good for all I think.

-Richard

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Every time this conversation about setting rates comes up, the word "collusion" pops into my head. Competition and free markets make us all better, right? RIGHT??

My opinion is to work for the rate you need to get to make yourself happy, and don't worry about what what others are doing. We all had to start somewhere, and that means there will always be bottom feeders and idiot newb producers. Some will learn and make a go of it, and some will just disappear.

I'm in the union, I'm in a Right-to-Work state, I sometimes do non-union jobs. I get screwed over the most on non-union jobs ... to the point of rarely doing those type of jobs any more. Eventually, producers will learn to pay more to get good work, or they will fail as producers. If they screw over enough people, they will find it difficult to hire crew at ANY rate.

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That would run into, believe it not, anti-trust laws and be illegal.

Tell that to these guys:

Wedding & Event Videographers Association International

http://www.weva.com/public_web/

Legally, I think what they could say is, "we suggest the following rates be adhered to..." and then cite a list of numbers. That's not the same thing as price-fixing.

But I think the whole idea is completely impractical. At the low end of the business, even if you're in the union, these little non-union producers are going to scoff at certain rates. I just dealt with a producer today who offered a fairly low rate for labor, but they did understand the realities of equipment rental. When the dust settled, I think the final "all-in" daily rate was a reasonable compromise.

The official IATSE Low-Budget Agreement has a pretty good grasp of what I think is reasonable:

http://204.92.123.23...t-2010-2013.pdf

Approx. $45/hour for the mixer and $30/hour for the boom op is an excellent start. Equipment is always up in the air, but everything is negotiable. (Or "STN" as they say in the contract.) On an ultra-low-budget project, I can see where the rates would go down X percent more, but there are limits beyond which I can't go.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Just lost a feature due to a soundie undercutting me- Actually I'm not upset about losing the gig- I'm probably better off without it as they way the production has behaved, I can only imagine what other cheap ass stunts they are pulling. However I am still pretty peeved at the way it happened. From the outset a couple of months ago I knew that this was a low budget deal, but the project seemed interesting and my BS detector even tho it was cranked up to 11 didn't pick up any red flags, so I offered them a rate about 1/3 my regular day rate and very good deal on my gear which the production seemed more than happy to go with.

All set to shoot in a couple of weeks time , and because I'm not one to bail on a shoot last minute I passed on a some full paying jobs. Then yesterday I get an email saying that some other mixer had offered to do their 21 day shoot for a buyout of $3000 including all his gear, and get this, they even suggested that the gig could still be mine if I could come up with a lower offer! Well what can I say to that except F.U very much for your time! I hate to imagine what kind of sound are they going to get for $142 a day all in, but I can't believe they expected me to counter that with a lower deal!

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They deserve EXACTLY what they are going to get. Don't sweat it. I've had it happen to me too, and yeah, it sucks... But karma is a real bitch - She is gonna make the producers SUFFER for being such cheap bastards.

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More accurately described as a right-to-fuck-the-workers state.

Really? What part of the following says FTW?

"The Taft–Hartley Act

Prior to the passage of the Taft–Hartley Act by Congress over President Harry S. Truman's veto in 1947, unions and employers covered by the National Labor Relations Act could lawfully agree to a closed shop, in which employees at unionized workplaces must be members of the union as a condition of employment. Under the law in effect before the Taft-Hartley amendments, an employee who ceased being a member of the union for whatever reason, from failure to pay dues to expulsion from the union as an internal disciplinary punishment, could also be fired even if the employee did not violate any of the employer's rules.

The Taft–Hartley Act outlawed the closed shop. The union shop rule, which required all new employees to join the union after a minimum period after their hire, is also illegal.[1] As such, it is illegal for any employer to force an employee to join a union.

A similar arrangement to the union shop is the agency shop, under which employees must pay the equivalent of union dues, but need not formally join such union.

Section 14(B) of the Taft–Hartley Act goes further and authorizes individual states (but not local governments, such as cities or counties) to outlaw the union shop and agency shop for employees working in their jurisdictions. Under the open shop rule, an employee cannot be compelled to join or pay the equivalent of dues to a union, nor can the employee be fired if he joins the union. In other words, the employee has the right to work, regardless of whether or not he is a member or financial contributor to such a union.

The Federal Government operates under open shop rules nationwide, though many of its employees are represented by unions. Unions that represent professional athletes have written contracts that impose forced-unionism requirements,[2] but their application is limited to "wherever and whenever legal," as the Supreme Court has clearly held that the application of a Right to Work law is determined by the employee's "predominant job situs."[3] Hence, players on professional sports teams in states with Right to Work laws are protected by those laws, and cannot be required to pay any portion of union dues as a condition of continued employment"

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"so I offered them a rate about 1/3 my regular day rate and very good deal on my gear "

And that was Productions RED flag.... 8) They said, OK, Game on....

For this production maybe, but I have offered similar rates to low budget productions before (not often) and have been treated very well because the producers were trying hard with limited resources to make something good and they really appreciated all the crew that were working for reduced rates.

There is a difference between 'As much as we can afford' vs 'As little as we can get away with' The actual difference maybe nothing in terms of a $ amount, but huge in terms of attitude and working conditions. With hindsight I see clearly that the show in question was in the 'Little as we can get away with' camp so I'm probably better off out of that gig. Still can't help feeling bitter that not only has the job gone, but the other full paying work that I would have been available for has gone to someone else too all because some soundie out there doesn't understand the value of our craft.

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If you lost money do to their breech of contract (you have at least email records right?) I would bill them for lost wages and cancelation fee's.

Good luck with that.... Great in therory, but seldom if ever does it work out...

Probably best to look at it this way... If you actually have another paying option at the same time, it's best to from your end be up front and tell them that, "hey I can get booked on another job that really wants my services, but I will give you the first option... I would love to do the job, but would like a firm confirmation so I do not loose both gigs.."

That method usually shakes them up into a decision.. not always, but often... and, at least you can still get your other option rolling in the mean time... keep both rods in the fire... it's a dance, but done right you can land one or the other... It's all you can really do... once someone commits, get it in writing... all you can... even then, on a show like the one described, you really don't have much recourse... but all you can do is all you can do..

Remember, the more professional you appear, the more professional you will be treated... (In most cases)... A dramatic dive in rates, or unskilled negotiations can lead to flags for them to notice... You probably have to then hope they themselves are a bit green and lack the skills to even know...

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