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Lung Damage from prolonged fog generator exposure


mikewest

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Have suffered asthma long term but also bronchitis and occasional pneumonia during

the last 10 years my MD is suggesting it may be fog generator exposure.

I guess since 1982 to 2009 I have suffered hundreds of hours of sitting in fog filled stages.

Good article on Wikipedia about fog machine oil etc.

I am due to see a specialist soon.

Any observations or experiences gratefully received

Fondest

mike

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thats a good point, It is actually some kind of oil isn't it not water. If that is the case then it would be generally bad to inhale over long periods. I have never thought about it personally ad I do not to much work around fog machines other than the occasional job.

You might try a respirator on those days where you are working around one I believe there are some made for construction that do oil as well as dust. Sure you will look a bit like Darth Vader but it beats an asthma attack on set.

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I've spent quite a few months or more on sound stages with that infernal smoke machine Mike..haven't we all...I tended to move off set as much as I could...it wasn't good for the mics so wasn't good for me either...most of the smoke was water based as I recall and the Effects guy was fairly careful about what he used mostly...I used to get croup as a small child so I was aware off the consequences of long term exposure and took some precautions...we had face masks on set for those that wanted them and I used them a lot when it got heavy. I still have the odd coughing session on bad days but nothing serious.

Cheers Mike..

BVS

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All 'fog juice' should be supplied with an MSDS. Mineral oil has not been used in commercial fog liquid for some time, though current recipies can still cause irritation. It SHOULD not cause any damage, but if it makes you uncomfortable then take necessary precautions.

Here's the MSDS for American DJ brand fog juice.

http://www.americandj.com/pdffiles/AMERFOG.PDF

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As far as I know there are two types an oil based and a water based. The oil based has been banned. A few years ago I worked a show where the smogologist had one weeks experience. I assume she was using the wrong one. Short story: I ended up, in hospital with atrial fibrillation, had to finally be paddled, and shoot my stomach with anti clotting injections for a week.

I was doing playback and very active, up and down stairs. Wifey also gave me a big dose of ibuprofen which may have also contributed.

It (so far) has been my only incident, whether it was the fog of my advancing years who knows.;-) at the time I was a fairly active hiker with no medical issues.

Insist on a mask.

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for those in the know what else is in the water biased formulas I had been thinking on my earlier post that I have seen a couple of formulas over the years and they all contained some other agents in them to either purify or help fix the fog so it will linger longer.

I don't know what you are referring to as "Water based" Most of the supposed non toxic fog machines use a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Glycerin. Similar to Antifreeze (Ethylene Glycol) While supposedly non-toxic and not harmful, I find it causes me to get a sore throat and burning eyes after a while, and the following day or 2 I feel really tired and seem to have a lowered immune system and seem more susceptible to colds and flu. I have seen a flu or cold spread like wildfire through a crew working on a fogged set.. Sometimes they use Liquid Nitrogen to create low hanging "Fog" on the set. Although that is not dangerous or flammable it can displace and change the oxygen level in the room and cause it to be harder to catch you breath.

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" I don't know what you are referring to as "Water based" "

beware of incorrect Internet facts...

Always use at least a mask, I have my own "respirator" mask with filter cartridges that I bring, and if possible I am in a different room, or at least as far away as I can reasonably be.

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A tangent but..would be curious about folks' thoughts on location gigs with potential/probable asbestos exposure. Asked about a situation recently and was told it only matters if prolonged. Hmmm. Really? It seems simply asking about it ended communication.

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Particles in the air are particles in the air. It doesn't matter if they're "water-based" or whatever, they don't belong in your lungs.

Most of these things are considered safe in a "temporary work environment". Unfortunately, we are always in a temporary work environment.

Robert

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" was told it only matters if prolonged. "

hmmmmm

more Internet ,is-information ??

If you inhale asbestos, the particles go into your lungs...(and stay there!)

what do you think ?

of course there are precautions and procedures... otherwise, how could asbestos bee removed..??.

Edited by studiomprd
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A tangent but..would be curious about folks' thoughts on location gigs with potential/probable asbestos exposure. Asked about a situation recently and was told it only matters if prolonged. Hmmm. Really? It seems simply asking about it ended communication.

Asbestos is a mineral. The way it has been explained to me is that it is almost like little fiberglass shards that embed themselves in the lining of your lungs. The shards never leave, and they *can* lead to a tumor forming. Obviously the more exposure, the increase in risk. What's the risk of spending a few days in an old factory? Who knows, but you could probably make the same day rate mixing in a field. Tell production to set up their offices in a place with asbestos falling on their desks and see how they like it.

Like people said, it's a risk when airborne. That's why old houses with asbestos wrapped heating pipes often just wrap them in some sort of sealing plastic to defer removal. I know that's normal procedure here in the Northeast US.

As for fog machines.... I never had super long exposure, let alone day after day on a stage. I used to have "severe cronic asthma", and definitely had a reaction to fog machines back in the 80s and 90s. It wasn't particularly bad as a trigger, but I felt something uncomfortable going on. These days if I encounter it on set, it's more of a location that uses the fog in a room and I'm far enough away from it.

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I don't know what you are referring to as "Water based" Most of the supposed non toxic fog machines use a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Glycerin. Similar to Antifreeze (Ethylene Glycol) While supposedly non-toxic and not harmful, I find it causes me to get a sore throat and burning eyes after a while, and the following day or 2 I feel really tired and seem to have a lowered immune system and seem more susceptible to colds and flu. I have seen a flu or cold spread like wildfire through a crew working on a fogged set.. Sometimes they use Liquid Nitrogen to create low hanging "Fog" on the set. Although that is not dangerous or flammable it can displace and change the oxygen level in the room and cause it to be harder to catch you breath.

That would be what I am referring to I seem to recall something else being used once upon a time that was discontinued and caused more issues over time. I referred to it as "water based" because I believe it has more water in it than glycerine or glycol which is why it can in some cases spread disease if not stored or cleaned correctly (I actually shot a news story on this years back). As for the liquid nitrogen it would be causing an hypoxic work environment if there is indeed that much in the air. So it would actually be harder for stuff to burn you would get a headache etc... That is assuming they get the concentration high enough. But it is not dangerous per se as a matter of fact about 70 percent of the air we breathe is nitrogen.

Asbestos is a mineral. The way it has been explained to me is that it is almost like little fiberglass shards that embed themselves in the lining of your lungs. The shards never leave, and they *can* lead to a tumor forming. Obviously the more exposure, the increase in risk. What's the risk of spending a few days in an old factory? Who knows, but you could probably make the same day rate mixing in a field. Tell production to set up their offices in a place with asbestos falling on their desks and see how they like it.

Like people said, it's a risk when airborne. That's why old houses with asbestos wrapped heating pipes often just wrap them in some sort of sealing plastic to defer removal. I know that's normal procedure here in the Northeast US.

Correct about the old houses. As it was explained to me by a building inspector and a couple of contractors over the years the stuff is pretty inert if you do not inhale it. So don't mess with that old pipe insulation and it won't mess with you back. For that matter old linoleum tile popcorn ceiling electrical insulation and many other things. I actually used to hang lights for a theater about 10 years ago that was still using quite a few lights with the asbestos insulation on the wiring for the individual light heads. Its the white stuff and since I have not seen any electrical manufacturer that makes white wire insulation for film or stage lights I have to assume that all the ones I have seen with white braided wires over the years are asbestos.

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Asbestos is a mineral. The way it has been explained to me is that it is almost like little fiberglass shards that embed themselves in the lining of your lungs. The shards never leave, and they *can* lead to a tumor forming. Obviously the more exposure, the increase in risk.

The first TV job I ever had was working at a network affiliate in Tampa, and both our main studios had bare asbestos as insulation on the walls and roof, especially in the rafters, on all sides of the lighting grid. I can recall several occasions where I accidentally brushed the wall while I was hurrying down a catwalk, and got all kinds of little shards in my arm and shoulder. God knows what the health risks were. I try not to think about it.

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The first TV job I ever had was working at a network affiliate in Tampa, and both our main studios had bare asbestos as insulation on the walls and roof, especially in the rafters, on all sides of the lighting grid. I can recall several occasions where I accidentally brushed the wall while I was hurrying down a catwalk, and got all kinds of little shards in my arm and shoulder. God knows what the health risks were. I try not to think about it.

An old friend of my fathers was a Navy pilot and told us a story bout how all the heating and hot water pipes were covered in asbestos on the aircraft carriers. If you were on the top bunk, you always woke up with white flakes on you, and waking up fast probably meant you banged your head on the pipes. He was at least in his 70s when telling me this story. He lived that way every day for years on end. Obviously an increased risk, but also not instant, or guaranteed, death.

As many other threads have said, is it worth risking your health for some goofy TV show? You are not a first responder that signed up to charge into the unknown in the hopes of saving lives, you are making a movie in a theoretically controlled environment. We are hopefully very aware of things like lightning, but there are other risks too. The ones that could take years to show up are still very real concerns.

Sorry to derail your thread Mike!

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An old friend of my fathers was a Navy pilot and told us a story bout how all the heating and hot water pipes were covered in asbestos on the aircraft carriers. If you were on the top bunk, you always woke up with white flakes on you, and waking up fast probably meant you banged your head on the pipes. He was at least in his 70s when telling me this story. He lived that way every day for years on end. Obviously an increased risk, but also not instant, or guaranteed, death.

Ditto, I think people have a huge tendency with lead and asbestos to forget just how many things they were in and that the levels of contact were extremely high.

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It's always wise to question, or investigate, what it is that someone's burning or wafting, or throwing into the air, especially on a stage.

In 1955, Howard Hughes produced a terrible film, "The Conqueror," starring John Wayne as the Mongul leader Genghis Khan, also starring Agnes Moorhead, Susan Hayward, and directed by actor/director Dick Powell. For the exterior location scenes the company was sent to St. George, Utah. This location was 137 miles from the Nevada location of "Operation Upshot-Knothole," not another film company, but rather the U.S. Governments location for above ground nuclear testing. This would most likely include high levels of radiation, which leaves particles in the soil which have a lifespan of several thousand years.

The U.S. Government knew of the tests, and also of the location filming being done, and told the production company that there was no danger in filming there. Maybe they used the term, "acceptable levels?" To complicate matters, Hughes had suggested the production bring back several tons of the dirt of Utah, so that there would be the same dirt on stage, as in the exteriors.

Then, in 1963 actor/director Dick Powell died of cancer, then a member of the cast got cancer and another and another. John Wayne lost a lung to cancer, before finally succumbing to the disease, Susan Hayward, Agnes Moorhead and another actor John Hoyt all eventually died from cancer. Some laughed off the tie of cancer, to the "dirt" of Utah, as many in the cast including Wayne and Moorhead, where habitual smokers. However years later, some of the children of the actors who had visited the set, also came down with cancers, fortunately none that couldn't be addressed medically.

The film company consisted of approximately 250 people, this would be your "sample size," out of that sample of people being exposed to the same conditions, doctors suggest you could expect maybe 30 some cases of cancer to exist. From the cast and crew that worked on the film, 91 cases of cancer related illnesses have developed. Same doctors would have to say that this number from the sample size would be called epidemic.

When I started in the 1970's they would use beeswax in a bellowed device, first light the beeswax and then puffing on the bellows caused the heavy and thick smoke to be put into the scene. This product and this way of creating smoke on sets was used for years before me. It was thick and you certainly knew it's smell before you even saw it.

It was finally discovered that breathing in this smoke was harmful, SAG got a ruling in their favor to create a "bump" of $50.00 USD whenever a member was to be used in a scene containing this type of smoke. Thus the "mineral oil" smoker came into existence. I'm not a big fan of this, mainly becasue every Special Effects personal seems to have a different brand, or type, of oil.

Another danger is/was "fuller's earth," this product was used to add extra dust in a scene, so if you were shooting a Western, the street would be covered with fuller's earth, so that as the wagons drove by and the people walked by, dust would rise up to show you just how dusty the Old West really was. A great example of the over use of this product is just about every shot in "Heaven's Gate," director Michael Cimino and cinematographer Vilmos Zsigmond, had decided that the Old West was dusty and liberally used fuller's earth.

This too became a danger and was "outlawed" for use on film sets. You must be careful what the company is throwing in the air, do you have allergies? One of the most common movie dust sources is walnuts that have been ground into dust. It's the responsibility of the production company to inform the cast and crew as to what products the Special Effects department intends to employ.

Ever been around an explosion on set? Lot's of rubber cement to catch on fire and here also you can find fuller's earth used inside of an air cannon. Bullet hits shot by an air rifle, many times these are pellets of fuller's earth.

Ask questions, have a respirator as part of your kit, although I always wonder what the actors think when they turn around and the crew is all wearing masks and respirators and they have nothing of the like on!

Now who can I blame this damn tinnitus on?

Cheers,

Rich Van Dyke

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" (Government)... told the production company that there was no danger in filming there. "

moral of this, and soooo many other stories: 'Do you believe the Government ?'

If you don't I'll give you an address where you can send all those printed-by-the-government pieces of paper (usually referred to as "money"). I'll take them off your hands and relieve you of any thoughts that you might be supporting "the man".

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I have lived and breathed the smog in Southern California for 60 years. Smoked Camel cigarettes from 15 till I was 30. Been on smoke filled and dusty sets for 35 years. I fully expect to die from some form of cancer if a car crash doesn't get me first. This I accept.

I'm happy people are becoming more aware of this issue on all fronts. I must say that the air quality of SoCal is so much better than it was in the 50's n 60's even though we have 10 time as many cars n people out here. The sets are getting better and more people are using protective gear. Anyone remember Smoke Cookies? A foul toxic patty they used to light off to create a ton of smoke. Compared to the past, fewer folks smoke tobacco and all that goes with those. I see hope with knowledge and I believe we will get safer but the toll will be great from our past practices. Stay informed and respond to dangerous conditions.

CrewC

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During the mid 70's thru the 80's almost every set had smoke.Yes, I remember smoke cookies and then they changed to oil and said it would be so much better. It was a little bit better but still headaches, felt tired for days and soot around the nose. They finally did provide crappy paper masks. We were stupid. It was for the art and we were young.

J.D.

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