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Timecode recorded onto an audio track


José

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Hey Guys!

Question about timecode that has been recorded onto a nonlinear digital audio track via a recorder's analog mic/line input!

I am entertaining the thought of sending timecode to a Zoom H4n recorder with a lockit box. But wonder if done correctly, can this prove to be a hassle anyway for editors in decoding the TC? I am sure retrieving timecode from an audio track can be done, but is it always an easy process for the editor? Can decoding timecode always be done with little issue on Pro-Tools, AVID, Adobe Premiere, Final Cut Pro, etc? Or does retrieving timecode from an audio track require extra work such as searching the net for the right decoder plug-in program to do the job? Just seeing if timecode onto an audio track is standard enough to submit to an editor for any given occasion.

The H4n would sit in my soundbag strictly as a secondary recording to HOPs. For the sake of conversation, I do know the 552 is an option, but I really like my current mixer.

Opinions appreciated. Thanks!

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My opinion: a machine like the Zoom H4N doesn't have an internal clock crystal that's stable enough to run at a constant speed, whether or not you have a timecode track for it. I think it's still going to drift -- but the question is how much it will drift.

Years ago (like 10 years), I once used a Sony TCD-D7 non-timecode DAT machine to help out a friend of mine doing a student film, and it actually stayed in sync long enough to be OK for 3-minute takes. All the addition of timecode would have done would have been to have helped us sync it up faster in telecine for dailies. We did have to play it back with a -.1% pulldown in order to match the 23.976 frame-rate of film, but other than that, it was pretty straightforward.

A true timecode recorder should be stable over a fairly long period of time (like several hours), plus have referenced timecode. The other thing you theoretically get with a pro deck is reliability, durability, sound quality, and ease of use. I think you get the latter with a $300 recorder like the Zoom, but not the former. The other thing you lose is embedded metadata, which keeps track of scene numbers, take numbers, track names, and scene-specific notes, all of which are very useful for the editor.

But: a Zoom Recorder is better than nothing. I know of cases where people have relied entirely on (say) a Red Camera for a shoot, and then discovered too late that the levels were bad, or the sound became disconnected, or no sound was recorded because the camera went into a non-standard mode, or some other problem. I would rather have a Zoom Recorder than silence.

[That's a great T-shirt they could use for promotion: "I'd rather have a Zoom Recorder than silence."]

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Thanks Philip! Thanks Marc!

I will not be employing an H4n into my kit afterall. I'll go with a Zaxcom ZFR100 with the stereo adapter instead. I'll have to figure out where to nestle the cable run and where to perch the thing in my soundbag. That can be a PITB. But in any case, I am glad to now know that there are indeed editors that will despise LITC. And Marc, I'm glad you brought up the possible drift issue with an H4n. That's enough to convince me to not go that route.

And yes! That's a good T-shirt seller. Amongst only sound people that is! But then it can bait babes in general to ask about the meaning of the shirt, which can become a great conversation starter. :)

Well, then again! Maybe not. They'll have to care to ask first. :-

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There's a very sad discussion over on the Red User group, where they've discovered that if you use the "HDRX" mode -- essentially grabbing a low exposure and a high exposure of every frame -- the audio glitches and starts repeating itself, and generally misses the last 1/3 or so of the scene. Needless to say, the Red was their only audio source, so now that sound is lost forever.

To me, the only time I would use just a camera alone for sound would be under battle conditions, and on-air broadcast shoot, or maybe B-roll where the sound was not critical. At the least, get something like the SD 552 or a Zoom and grab some non-TC sound as an emergency backup. Often, a crappy parachute can still save your life.

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Thanks Marc!

I will be going with one of the Zaxcom miniature timecode recorders with the stereo adapter to connect to my Alphamix.

I have only worked with an Epic for a few days on one production and the timecode kept in sync the whole time with the 788T I was using. The frame rate was set at 23.97.

In any case, I am going to follow that HDRX mode discussion thread sometime tonite at the Red User group. I never knew about the HDRX issue until you gave me a heads up about it just now. I will most definitely not show up on a RED shoot without a designated timecode recorder.

On DSLR shoots, I have been using my FR2 as my primary. So I believe it can serve me well on Epic shoots also, but the recorder takes up a lot of real estate in my Petrol bag. I only use it on shoots where I know I can set the bag down for most of the day. Hence, the need for a smaller two track.

I am in the minority (probably the only guy) when it comes to the 552. I work with 552s all the time on multicrew shoots. But I have never been a big fan. It's a pain to get to those trims. And I always jump to the trims for dynamic changes in audio levels. The Zaxcom miniature connected to my mixer would be a better choice for me since it can generate timecode and does not require a lockit box. And at some point by early next year, I'll buy a multitrack anyway. 788T, NOMAD, or HS-P82. My brain is still in deliberation about which one.

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To follow up on the little Zax, how do you get time code to match camera? Is it a cable or do you jam it,and you send an audio mix from l/r out to the recorder? JHW

The Zaxcom ZRF recorders can receive TC in two different ways - either wirelessly if you have a piece of Zaxcom gear that will transmit a Zaxnet signal (QRX, Nomad, IFB100). If you don't the ZRF can take a hardline TC jam - all the ZRF units feature a TC reader / generator so you can jam and disconnect or leave it connected if you like.

Then just input audio into the ZRF and you are good to go.

Keep in mind that the ZRF recorders will record the files as MARF files so then you will have to use Zaxconvert in a PC or Mac to convert the files to a .WAV or MP3.

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  • 2 years later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Perhaps I am asking the obvious (I'll take the grumble if I am!) but the

information I got from other posts/forums is messy, perhaps misses simpler

or more recent solutions, and never describe the full workflow.

 

So if anyone here could help clarify:

 

- Say I want to sync in FCP a multi-track timecoded audio BWF with

the matched video file, which has scratch sound on the right and TC on

the left audio channels. What is the best workflow?

 

(I have heard of auxTC reader http://www.videotoolshed.com/product/26/fcp-auxtc-reader,

are there alternatives?)

 

- how will the audio TC track approach compare in term of reliability and

efficiency with plural eye if my scratch camera audio track is the nearly

perfect mirror of one of the BWF tracks (transmitted via zaxnet/erx1)?

Any experience with this solution for rather complex ambiance recordings

(e.g. distant action within crowd, forest,...)?

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From some old questionable part of my memory...

With Avid MC having a audio track with TC is useful when syncing picture to audio.

but since some editors struggle to sync pictures and audio (even when they are TC stamped) I often ask my DIT to do it for them and bin up the combined files (takes him a few minutes)...

It may be worth trying it yourself as you will receive a phone call (and you then can talk the person through the process) ....phone calls happen before any post person will look at a manual.

Michael

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- Say I want to sync in FCP a multi-track timecoded audio BWF with

the matched video file, which has scratch sound on the right and TC on

the left audio channels. What is the best workflow?

 

personally i'd synch them in davinci resolve and export to XML.

workflow is very similar to plural eyes in fact.

 

- how will the audio TC track approach compare in term of reliability and

efficiency with plural eye if my scratch camera audio track is the nearly

perfect mirror of one of the BWF tracks (transmitted via zaxnet/erx1)?

Any experience with this solution for rather complex ambiance recordings

(e.g. distant action within crowd, forest,...)?

 

well, there are advantages and disadvantages to both...

 

plural eyes will struggle when you have repeating sound patterns (had this once with a music playback), very short pieces or parts where there there is no clear audio fingerprint. also you'll need a reliable wireless or cable to camera scratch.

 

audio timecode has the risk of synch loss on the timecode devices, and poor level on the TC track.

 

both should do the job well if handled properly

chris

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