Would you sacrifice your rate for a life experience.

[José]

First and foremost the right safety provisions and insurances have to be in place for traveling out there.

And then there is the gear. Your gear. Should you decide to work at $150/day afterall, I think it wouldn't be a stretch to negotiate with the production company to rent the gear from a rental house.

[Geoff Tirrell]

I could understand taking a lower rate but 150 and no equipment rental is below bare bones.

From what you are telling me I would be very skeptical of the trip planning involved. There are considerable costs associated with just getting into that regain and if soothing goes sideways there there is money needed to get out or replacement gear etc... There is also the altitude consideration meaning that you need to spend time preparing at high altitude, and acclimating once you get there. You cannot simply get off a plane and pick up a mix bag actually that could potentially kill you.

In short there is a lot more involved with this job than is being let on and it does not sound like this has been thought out. Ultimately it is your call but I just feel compelled to offer some food for thought.

[Martin Kittappa]

There is a lot of food for thought here, and I will certainly be asking the production many questions before I commit- Insurance, contingency, Med-Evac, maybe taking rental gear rather than putting mine through the wringer etc. The opinions here do seem very polarized from 'Go for it' to 'Don't Do it' and everything in between.

Maybe it would be good to ask- and some have already given some examples- Has anyone here done a job for little or no pay just for the amazing experience, and if so what was the experience like? -The good, the bad and the ugly.

Also what kind of jobs would you jump on for no or little pay?- If someone were to offer me a job recording whilst riding on the Virgin Galactic space craft for no pay I'd probably do it in heartbeat.

[Rob Beal]

I know you're joking with the Virgin Galactic quip, but even that rhetorical situation just further demonstrates the flaw in your line of thinking. If someone wanted sound recorded on a multi-million dollar space flight, they should be paying full rate or MORE to get a professional who will do a great job in a stressful environment without worrying about how "cool" the experience is. What if they hired an overeager rookie who botched the sound? Same goes for trekking through mountain ranges. We are supposed to be professionals and these "life experience" jobs often put us in more challenging conditions than normal. To do it for $150 completely devalues everything we work for in our careers. It's not a vacation, it's a job, and it's pretty troublesome that so many people apparently don't even think twice about compromising the true value of their career.

Maybe that's a bit harsh, but a couple people offered excellent advice here. If you want to see any of these "life experience" places, make some money and go there yourself! Maybe someday producers won't expect to hire a sound op for $150 then! (wishful thinking, I know).

-Rob Beal

[Rich Van Dyke]

I've been fortunate to have been travelled to various parts of the world, for different productions, but all have paid a fair and common wage and gear rental.

It seems obviousl to me that the people you're dealing with are looking, and selling their job, on the life experience and are trying to get someone to work for P.A. wages, or less than P.A. wages. While I've not always worked on union jobs, there is no jurisdiction of the I.A.T.S.E. outside of the United States, I've always worked for labor and gear rental fees.

Only you can make the judgment on wether this is something you'd be willing to do, it seems to me that you just want support for your decision from the members here. Obviously some members think this would be great, others tend to have a more realistic point of view. I disagree that "...every job is a life experience....." sure every job is done during your lifetime, but working for ten months on a television series shot entirely on stage in your hometown, is not the same "life expereience" as a documentary on bomb disposal shot with a three person film crew in Iraq.

The most intelligent post was from Geoff, wherein he mentions altitude sickness this is a real and serious concern. Have you ever travelled to high altitudes? Mount McKinley in Alaska is at an altitude of 20,320 feet, 6194 m, this is known as the Denali, in the Himalayas there are over 100 peaks above 7200 m. If you've never been to these heights you really need to consider the reality of being sick from the altitude, nothing more.

A friend of mine, after working on a "life experience" film in China, decided to take a trek to the Himalayan mountains and was immediately struck with altitude sickness, she was sick the whole time she was there and all the way home and for a week after. My Grandmother, who travelled extensively throughout her lifetime as a costume designer, was on her way to Kashmir when she was struck with the illness and it crippled her, she said each breath was like drinking boiling water, the Sherpas that were with her and her husband, made her comfortable but couldn't really do much to comfort her. The experience damaged her lungs and her health was never 100% after the trip. I do have some cool clothes from the region that she brought back though.

If you do decide to go, my advice on these adventures, is to make sure that you have a round trip paid airline ticket, and make sure that the ticket and your passport never leave your sight. I was doing a small film in Peniscola, Spain and the money went south and I left the production and was able to get back home on their dime, because I had my ticket.

What I cannot get straight in my head is that so many of you folks working out there are giving away equipment for free, the $150.00 USD per day is what you might get for the most basic of sound packages; mixer, boom mic, and one wireless system. So, either you're working for free, and your gear is being rented, which means that you don't value your knowledge of recording sound, or you're accepting the labor rate of $150.00 USD and throwing in your equipment for free.

This is not the same situation as a "newbie" working for a low rate while trying to establish him/herself. In fact this is a situation where an experienced producer wants someone who really knows what they're doing, because if they don't they can't put an ad on Raji's List to get another mixer.

So after all that, it really is up to you and your own conscious about wether to take the job or not. Seriously consider the effects of what ramifications the altitude sickness may bear on you and your future health.

Good Luck,

Rich Van Dyke

[Marc Wielage]

Much good advice here. My take is, if they're cheaping out on the mixer's rate, then god knows how many other corners they're cutting. If they get cheap guides, cheap hotels, cheap food, cheap planes, cheap gas... it could add up to disaster.

I would work on a compromise, and say "I can't do it for X, but since this is such a great experience, I would be willing to do it for Y." Come up with a higher figure that both of you can live with.

But $150 is not enough to get me out of bed, seriously. And 12-hour days are not the same thing as a vacation, no matter how beautiful the location. If they kicked in something for equipment rental, expendables, per diem, full insurance, all expenses paid... that might be something else.

[Geoff Tirrell]

Also on a side note about the altitude sickness precautions there is a regimen followed by runners and mountaineers that greatly reduces the risks but part of it is spending some time pre expedition living and working out somewhere in the high rockies before you leave. If I was going to participate in something of this nature I would want to do that or not go at all. Will this employer pay for you to be out of circulation for a several weeks both state side and at the higher working altitudes when you reach the Himalayas. This speaks nothing for the other physical prep routine consisting of general fitness exercise and running which I would not expect to be compensated for.

I look at it this way if you are hauling 30 to 50 lbs of equipment plus very potentially clothing etc. Than you are essentially a backpacker in the Himalayas and should prepare as such, even if you plan to have sherpas do much of the work you want to put the odds of experience altitude illness in your favor as it can strike even seasoned prepared people. Yes this might seem like a bit much for what in some peoples eyes is just a little video/film project etc... but do you really want to mess around with something that can kill you or preeminently change your standard of living for the worse?

[RPSharman]

And let's talk about appropriate cold weather gear.

Proper clothing and footwear is critical, and expensive. Do you own this sort of gear?

This whole thing seems fishy. If there's not enough money to do it right (including paying you and outfitting you with the proper gear and acclimation), then there's no money to do it at all.

Sometimes projects don't get made because they can't be paid for. Why has this become such a foreign concept?

[JamesT]

There so much awesome knowledge/wisdom here. I still feel like this is my secret go-to community for lessons and stuff.

I wish this topic had come around sooner

There some great points here that would have helped me along during the negotiations for a gig from a few months back.

The gig in question was on a Royal Caribbean's Navigator of the Seas. (Jamaica and a couple of locations in the Bahamas)

I asked for $300/day including gear (H4n/302/NTG3 and production pays for wireless rental)

Production came back with an offer for $200/day including my gear and a they still cover the wireless rental. (no insurance)

I took it without hesitation. Thinking that it would be a nice "vaca-gig" ....Gather whatever production needed each day then kick back, soak up some sun, do some gambling, sound effects gathering, etc.

WRONG

It was the hardest job I have ever taken.

On account of the footage my team was hired to capture(parties, concerts, other events, etc.), we had to start each day around 9am and end it around 4am almost every day. The rationalization was that there would be large gaps in between these events for sleep or the aforementioned sound effects gathering, some gambling, mingling, etc.

My mistake: part of it was taking a lower pay for the "experience"

Part of it was getting into something without EVERYONE'S expectations being 100% clear.

Another part was my simple "green-ness"

Don't get me wrong, if I could go back I would still make sure that I was on that ship.

I recorded better than adequate tracks.

I made many connections in and outside of the industry.

I got to see a couple of new places.

I made some new friends.

I was paid in full and on time.

I stayed in a beautiful cabin on a luxury cruise ship (the few hours in which I could get some sleep, that is!)

I had a little bit of fun too.

BUT I would have spent more time ironing out details in the beginning AND I would have pushed harder for a higher rate.

I returned home to a day-job in retail, burnt out and feeling in need of a vacation : (

If you want the great experience, go for it.

Make sure you know as much about what your getting into as possible and prepare for the worst.

and as RP said, the weather prep should be VERY high on the list of considerations when negotiating.

Even higher than gear arrangemgens, IMO

[Boomboom]

_{Well, seems it's not always so bad to sacrifice your rate for a life experience.}

_{But you gatta stay away from sacrificing your life for a ''rate experience''... or should I say a ''rat's experiment'' ?}

_{Oh well...}

[Max Futterman]

Let's do a little math.

Few of us sound mixers work five days a week for 52 weeks out of the year. Recently, because in obsessed with numbers, I took my gross for last year and divided it by 52 weeks and then five days to see what my earnings would have to be working five days a week to match my sound income.

Suffice to say, at $150 a day, if you worked that five days a week all year, your gross income would be $39k. If you typically earn more than that, then mathematically speaking, they are not paying you. You are paying a little bit of money to have that experience.

[Max Futterman]

Btw, the above is a rather pointless exercise that merely argues for you not to take the job.

[Toy Robot]

You have been warned. Many of the above posts point out many reasons to be cautious, not to mention the simplest of all points: Earn your proper day rate doing normal gigs and you'll be able to afford a real vacation to your dream destination.

Any other line of thought devalues what we do and puts you at risk for a very unpleasant time (and as others have noted, in possible physical danger).

Also, I didn't see this mentioned - perhaps I missed it - but if you do decide to take this project and don't have a written & signed contract for OT, payment terms, etc. and if you don't acquire the physical tickets both ways for this trip like RVD mentioned, then you are in for a surprise.

Best of luck whatever your choice, but IMHO: Don't take this job.

[OmahaAudio]

I'd like a three month gig in France (based in Paris with filming throughout the country) with eight hour days, no late nights and weekends free. I'll accept three star hotels (or two star if in a rural area) with a reasonable per diem. I'd accept economy airfare and would be very open to negotiation as to day rate.

Would also consider similar situations throughout Western Europe.

[John Blankenship]

I'd like a three month gig in France (based in Paris with filming throughout the country) with eight hour days, no late nights and weekends free. I'll accept three star hotels (or two star if in a rural area) with a reasonable per diem. I'd accept economy airfare and would be very open to negotiation as to day rate.

Would also consider similar situations throughout Western Europe.

Be careful what you wish for <g>.

One way to tame your expectations is to recall the most stressful producer you've ever worked with and imagine them as being the exalted leader every day on your three month dream gig.

[Bondelev]

Granted I work mostly in post, but every time I have been offered low pay but a great experience, the experience has turned out to be terrible. this sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. If you are staying with Sherpas, you are mountain climbing all day with your gear, probably long days. This sounds like slave labor to me.

[John Blankenship]

...

This sounds like slave labor to me.

But, as Woody Allen might say, "Yes, but the pay's bad."

[Marc Wielage]

And such small portions!

[Zack]

Or would you sacrifice your life for a high rate....

[Philip Perkins]

There are a million reasons not to do the job. It makes no business sense at all. There are potential health hazards. But they are willing to take you someplace few people ever get to go. Is the project (not the location) meaningful for you? Good hit from the folks hiring you? Can you afford the time @ low pay, gear you'll have to buy and L+D on your equipment? If you can, well, when will an offer like this come again? Would you like to do more international adventure type shoots? If that appeals this is a good place to start. I have found that shoots like this pay pretty poorly in general, you really do have to be into this kind of thing to enjoy it, and figure you'll have to make your nut doing some normal jobs when you get home.

phil p

[Michael McQueen]

at the end of the day its still work. and its going to be hard work...