wolfvid Posted May 29, 2012 Report Share Posted May 29, 2012 for posterity sake add your own myths ======================= Subject: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: "Gene E. McCluney" <mccluney2@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 01:47:09 GMT -------- It has been my understanding that the term "M O S" is used, on a slate, when a scene is filmed without sync sound (or any sound). One guy I worked with back in the 1970's said that it stood for "mit out sound". (said with a German accent). What does it REALLY stand for??? Gene McCluney mccluney2@earthlink.net ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: johnw248@aol.com (JohnW248) Date: 08 Jan 2001 02:35:36 GMT -------- In article <070120011948020463%mccluney2@earthlink.net>, "Gene E. McCluney" <mccluney2@earthlink.net> writes: >What does it REALLY stand for??? Motor only synch It used used (or was) in the days when the sound department ran the camera motors and a shot was to be made without film running in the sound department recorder, hence it was a 24 fps synch shot but without sound and the camera report and sound reports were marks M. O. S. Not as romantic as the old Hal Roach camera assistant story Mit Out Sound, but pay your money and choose your story. John ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) Date: 7 Jan 2001 22:08:05 -0500 -------- JohnW248 <johnw248@aol.com> wrote: >In article <070120011948020463%mccluney2@earthlink.net>, "Gene E. McCluney" ><mccluney2@earthlink.net> writes: > >>What does it REALLY stand for??? > >Motor only synch No, it's actually an indication to the editor, meaning "MUSIC ON SIDE" to remind the editor to put music over the silent sequences. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: peterh5322@aol.com (Peter) Date: 08 Jan 2001 17:57:33 GMT -------- johnw248@aol.com (JohnW248) commented ... >> > What does it REALLY stand for??? Motor only synch It used used (or was) in the days when the sound department ran the camera motors and a shot was to be made without film running in the sound department recorder, hence it was a 24 fps synch shot but without sound and the camera report and sound reports were marks M. O. S. Not as romantic as the old Hal Roach camera assistant story Mit Out Sound, but pay your money and choose your story. >> Indeed. The "Mit Out Sound" legend is so old, one has to invoke the "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" axiom to see the forest from the trees. That axiom states, "This is the West, sir! When the legend becomes fact, we print the legend". Whereupon the reporter tore up his notes, which notes enumerated in excruciating detail the true history of Liberty Valance's demise (namely, John Wayne killed Valance, James Stewart did not). I came (decades ago, admittedly) from a shop where the cameras only had multi-duty 96 volt dc/240 volts ac motors (240 volts is the most common three-phase "delta" ac voltage while 208 volts is the most common three-phase "wye" ac voltage). The sound department operator controlled the 96 volts dc, which was sent to the camera, and the camera's 240 volts three-phase ac output was sent back to the sound department's recorder (a Westrex in this specific case) where it provided ac power for the recorder's drive (the ac power for the recorder's electronics was provided separately). A reed-type frequency counter was always across the 240 volt three phase ac line, and this was the sole indication of the camera's speed, as a 96 volt dc motor can actually run at almost any speed from about 16 fps to about 32 fps, simply by adjusting the dc voltage sent to the camera. When the frequency meter read "24 fps" or "48 Hz", depending upon the specific meter being used, the sound department's operator would assert, "Speed!, and the shot could commence. The selection of 96 volts is somewhat interesting and a simplification of the selection of 96 volts, as opposed to 12 or 24 or anything else for that matter, is this ... A shunt-wound dc motor designed to run on 120 volts dc has a nominal rpm of just about 1800 (it is a pure coincidence that a 4-pole, 60 Hz synchronous motor also runs at 1800 rpm), and the motor's rpm is almost linearly related to the applied dc voltage. Yet, 1440 rpm is needed for 24 fps on a direct drive camera, such as a Fox Studio Camera, and some others. So, we apply the simple linear equation ... ( 1440 / 1800 ) * 120 = 96, and come up with 96 volts as being the nominal applied dc voltage required to achieve and maintain 24 fps. And, parenthetically, as required to send 48 Hz to the recorder from the 240 volt output of this "multi duty" camera motor. So, if the shot was to be made without sound, the sound recorder's operator would still be required to perform every function, including getting the entire system up to synchronous speed, *except* for loading mag film into the recorder. Under these circumstances, the operator's log would read "Motor Only Synch", or, simply "MOS". A similar situation would apply if this same camera was operated in the studio, powered by an "interlock distributor". In this case the sound department, which "owned" the interlock distributor, would provide the 240 volts three-phase power to the camera, which was usually 48 Hz in the case of a direct drive camera, from its interlock distributor and the results would be the same, "Motor Only Synch", or "MOS". The only difference being that the speed did not need to be set by the sound department's operator as an interlock distributor always runs at synchronous speed. Peter. ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: dylan_j@my-deja.com Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 11:41:17 GMT -------- This all sounds thoroughly convincing, so I'll believe you, but just wanted to throw in that I heard it stood for "Minus Optical Sound" which at the time made sense to me as I assumed that the slate was more for the information of the editor than the camera department. Doesn anyone happen to know what they write on the slate for silent shots in France? I'll bet they use something different from the rest of the world! Dylan > > > What does it REALLY stand for??? > > Motor only synch > > It used used (or was) in the days when the sound department ran the camera > motors and a shot was to be made without film running in the sound department > recorder, hence it was a 24 fps synch shot but without sound and the camera > report and sound reports were marks M. O. S. > > Not as romantic as the old Hal Roach camera assistant story Mit Out Sound, but > pay your money and choose your story. > > John > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: est812@aol.com (EST812) Date: 09 Jan 2001 13:45:49 GMT -------- Nobody said: "Mit Ohne Stimme" in this thread. Eric Tausch, Miami ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: davidjoachim@my-deja.com Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:58:54 GMT -------- In article <20010109084550.06843.00000335@nso-fc.aol.com>, est812@aol.com (EST812) wrote: > Nobody said: "Mit Ohne Stimme" Gesundheit!! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: peterh5322@aol.com (Peter) Date: 09 Jan 2001 13:59:55 GMT -------- >> This all sounds thoroughly convincing, so I'll believe you, but just wanted to throw in that I heard it stood for "Minus Optical Sound" which at the time made sense to me as I assumed that the slate was more for the information of the editor than the camera department. >> That would date you to the very early 1950s as optical sound hasn't been used for principal sound recording since about that time. A better version would be "Magnetic Optical Sound" (say, 1958), perhaps meaning that the sound department was recording three channel magnetic sound as one principal element (for use in making 4-track mag prints), but that an optical principal element was also being shot, perhaps through a "tap" from the center channel microphone (for use in making mono prints). ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: dylan_j@my-deja.com Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 14:09:41 GMT -------- > > > > This all sounds thoroughly convincing, so I'll believe you, but > > just wanted to > > throw in that I heard it stood for "Minus Optical Sound" which at > > the time made > > sense to me as I assumed that the slate was more for the > > information of the > > editor than the camera department. > > > That would date you to the very early 1950s as optical sound hasn't been used > for principal sound recording since about that time. > I would assume that the origins of the phrase would have dated back to the very early 1930s, and therefore when they STOPPED using optical sound would be irrelevent. I was guessing that the term would tell the editor that there was no optical sound recorded for this shot so non sync sound would have to be added in post, and even when they stopped using optical sound and switched to tape, the use of the term continued. > A better version would be "Magnetic Optical Sound" (say, 1958), perhaps meaning > that the sound department was recording three channel magnetic sound as one > principal element (for use in making 4-track mag prints), but that an optical > principal element was also being shot, perhaps through a "tap" from the center > channel microphone (for use in making mono prints). > Maybe I got my facts wrong but I was under the pretty concrete impression *MOS* referred to situations where no sound was being recorded at all. Maybe we're not talking aout the same use of the term, but I find it hard to believe sound departments would come up with the same acronym for two almost contradictory activities. Dylan Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: "Grant Roberts" <groberts@ozemail.com.au> Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 13:56:34 +1100 -------- minus objectionable sound-recordist Grant "Gene E. McCluney" <mccluney2@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:070120011948020463%mccluney2@earthlink.net... > It has been my understanding that the term "M O S" is used, on a slate, > when a scene is filmed without sync sound (or any sound). > > One guy I worked with back in the 1970's said that it stood for "mit > out sound". (said with a German accent). > > What does it REALLY stand for??? > > Gene McCluney > mccluney2@earthlink.net ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) Date: 7 Jan 2001 22:12:02 -0500 -------- Grant Roberts <groberts@ozemail.com.au> wrote: >minus objectionable sound-recordist The thing is that originally sound recordings were done on disc, so it was impossible to make any edits within a sound sequence. It was only possible to do serious editing in the sections of film that were shot silent, so the "MOS" indication was made so that the folks in post knew to "Make Optical Splices" in that section of film. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) Date: 7 Jan 2001 22:06:37 -0500 -------- Gene E. McCluney <mccluney2@earthlink.net> wrote: > >One guy I worked with back in the 1970's said that it stood for "mit >out sound". (said with a German accent). > >What does it REALLY stand for??? See, the story goes that Friz Lang sent a guy out for a ham and cheese sandwich. And he came back to find out what sort of cheese Mr. Lang wanted, but it was a long shot and he didn't want to walk all the way across the studio. So he chalked MOS up on a slate, meaning "Muenster Or Swiss?" and held it up to him, figuring it was fine to use the "sound" field on the slate since it was a silent shot. But Lang misinterpreted that, and ever since then he, and all of use, have used MOS in the sound field to designate that a shot is silent. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) Date: 7 Jan 2001 22:14:50 -0500 -------- Gene E. McCluney <mccluney2@earthlink.net> wrote: > >One guy I worked with back in the 1970's said that it stood for "mit >out sound". (said with a German accent). > >What does it REALLY stand for??? The thing is that in the early days of sound-on-film, the film had to be processed to a very low gamma in order to get a good quality sound negative with the variable density systems, so it was a very common procedure for labs to underdevelop films substantially. This was a bad idea if you were doing silent work, so it became common to denote these with "MOS" on the slate, for "More Overdevelopment, Stupid" in an attempt to convince lab workers to process the film to an appropriate contrast level. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: davidjoachim@my-deja.com Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 10:40:18 GMT -------- In article <93bbba$5r5$1@panix2.panix.com>, kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote: > Gene E. McCluney <mccluney2@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > >One guy I worked with back in the 1970's said that it stood for "mit > >out sound". (said with a German accent). > > > >What does it REALLY stand for??? > > The thing is that in the early days of sound-on-film, the film had to be > processed to a very low gamma in order to get a good quality sound negative > with the variable density systems, so it was a very common procedure for > labs to underdevelop films substantially. This was a bad idea if you were > doing silent work, so it became common to denote these with "MOS" on the > slate, for "More Overdevelopment, Stupid" in an attempt to convince lab > workers to process the film to an appropriate contrast level. > --scott > -- And then there are the news assignment editors who frequently demand that crews go feel the pulse of the proletariat and get their take on current news. They say, "Get me some MOS," which used to mean Man on the Street. Being deferential to contemporary demands for politically correct gender neutrality (not to mention the idiocy of such lazy polling practices), I have renamed it Moron on the Street. Watch Jay Leno as he polls people on current events, you'll get an idea of the shooting ratio required on these news assignments. I prefer the apochryphal "Mit Out Sound." Too hell with revisionist historians who probe too deeply and come up with more logical explanations of colorful trivia. After all, no one has ever explained to my satisfaction why journalists write -30- at the end of their stories (they don't in TV, they probably don't in print anymore). Let's make something up right now: The first news story was 30 words long. The first news story was written in 30 A.D. (Anno Domini is also now politically incorrect, by the way). David Joachim Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: johnw248@aol.com (JohnW248) Date: 08 Jan 2001 15:08:25 GMT -------- In article <93c5ei$8fu$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, davidjoachim@my-deja.com writes: >After all, no one has ever explained >to my satisfaction why journalists write -30- at the end of their >stories (they don't in TV, they probably don't in print anymore). There is a reason and it had to do with wire services--but you don't like my other story which I got from someone who worked in the sound department in the 1930's at MGM John ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: davidjoachim@my-deja.com Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2001 20:59:19 GMT -------- In article <20010108100825.28592.00000082@nso-ca.aol.com>, johnw248@aol.com (JohnW248) wrote: > In article <93c5ei$8fu$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, davidjoachim@my-deja.com writes: > > >After all, no one has ever explained > >to my satisfaction why journalists write -30- at the end of their > >stories (they don't in TV, they probably don't in print anymore). > > There is a reason and it had to do with wire services--but you don't like my > other story which I got from someone who worked in the sound department in the > 1930's at MGM > > John > I doubt that Samuel Goldwyn ever said, "A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." When he was told that THE CHILDREN'S HOUR was about lesbians, he probably did say, "Well, we'll make 'em Mexicans." But who really knows for sure? I love "Mit out sound," but I could easily be convinced that MOS stands for something a bit more prosaic--with reasonable documentation. David Joachim Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) Date: 8 Jan 2001 20:28:14 -0500 -------- In article <93d9n1$8fk$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, <davidjoachim@my-deja.com> wrote: > > I doubt that Samuel Goldwyn ever said, "A verbal contract isn't worth >the paper it's written on." When he was told that THE CHILDREN'S HOUR >was about lesbians, he probably did say, "Well, we'll make 'em >Mexicans." But who really knows for sure? I love "Mit out sound," but I >could easily be convinced that MOS stands for something a bit more >prosaic--with reasonable documentation. Well, in fact, that was the derivation of the term MOS in the first place. From time to time, Goldwyn would go out on the lot and watch the productions taking place there. And, being Sam Goldwyn, he just couldn't shut up, so it was common practice for the directors to shoot silent footage while he was on the set, as he couldn't understand that one had to be quiet. The indication "MOS" for "MOGUL ON SOUNDSTAGE" originated here. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: "Angelo Sartore" <fangio@netspace.net.au> Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 15:57:42 +1100 -------- > The indication "MOS" for "MOGUL ON SOUNDSTAGE" originated here. > --scott In Australia we say "Ducks on the pond", whenever a Producer or Production Manager turns up on set! As if to say "Look Busy!" ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: Robert Harris <robert_harris@filmpreserve.com> Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 21:09:46 -0800 -------- "Mit out sound" RAH On Mon, 08 Jan 2001 01:47:09 GMT, "Gene E. McCluney" <mccluney2@earthlink.net> wrote: >It has been my understanding that the term "M O S" is used, on a slate, >when a scene is filmed without sync sound (or any sound). > >One guy I worked with back in the 1970's said that it stood for "mit >out sound". (said with a German accent). > >What does it REALLY stand for??? > >Gene McCluney >mccluney2@earthlink.net ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: William Hooper <rotoflex@MailAndNews.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 00:35:18 -0500 -------- >Doesn anyone happen to know what they write on the slate for silent shots in >France? I'll bet they use something different from the rest of the world! I believe the footage shot silent for the Pepe' LePew films is slated: N'avec-pas le recordeur `a microphonee' du racquette ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) Date: 10 Jan 2001 13:37:09 -0500 -------- In article <3A634BD5@MailAndNews.com>, William Hooper <rotoflex@MailAndNews.com> wrote: >>Doesn anyone happen to know what they write on the slate for silent shots in >>France? I'll bet they use something different from the rest of the world! > >I believe the footage shot silent for the Pepe' LePew films is slated: > >N'avec-pas le recordeur `a microphonee' du racquette -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) Date: 10 Jan 2001 19:08:49 -0500 -------- >Doesn anyone happen to know what they write on the slate for silent shots in >France? I'll bet they use something different from the rest of the world! In fact, the original MOS designation came from Rene Clair, who on an early sound shot didn't hear a reply from the sound guy that the equipment was up to speed, and looked behind him to find the mixer passed out, completely drunk. "Merde! Oubliez le Son!" he said, and the shot was made silent. The clappateur dutifuly wrote "MOS" on his slate, and the rest is history. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: dmm8878@juno.com Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 17:10:49 GMT -------- In Harry Box's "Set Lighting Technician's Guide," he says MOS stands for "minus optical stripe." Can you believe that I was told that it stood for "mit out sound" by one of film school professors? Why they even pay these people is beyond me. In article <070120011948020463%mccluney2@earthlink.net>, "Gene E. McCluney" <mccluney2@earthlink.net> wrote: > It has been my understanding that the term "M O S" is used, on a slate, > when a scene is filmed without sync sound (or any sound). > > One guy I worked with back in the 1970's said that it stood for "mit > out sound". (said with a German accent). > > What does it REALLY stand for??? > > Gene McCluney > mccluney2@earthlink.net Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: davidjoachim@my-deja.com Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 18:56:01 GMT -------- In article <93kpeg$c9a$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, dmm8878@juno.com wrote: > In Harry Box's "Set Lighting Technician's Guide," he says MOS stands > for "minus optical stripe." Can you believe that I was told that it > stood for "mit out sound" by one of film school professors? Why they > even pay these people is beyond me. > If you look on a slate and see "UP" that means "Under Protest." It means the DP disagrees with the director on how a shot should be made. I wonder why slate a slate designation wouldn't change with advances in technology and simply have "wild" or "silent" as a contemporary designation for non-sync shooting. I prefer to believe the exotic homage to the early days "Mit Out Sound" is what MOS stands for. But, who knows for sure? > In article <070120011948020463%mccluney2@earthlink.net>, > "Gene E. McCluney" <mccluney2@earthlink.net> wrote: > > It has been my understanding that the term "M O S" is used, on a > slate, > > when a scene is filmed without sync sound (or any sound). > > > > One guy I worked with back in the 1970's said that it stood for "mit > > out sound". (said with a German accent). > > > > What does it REALLY stand for??? > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: Eve Butterly <eve@airmail.net> Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:54:55 -0600 -------- Everybody knows the term MEANS "mit out sound." What it orginally STOOD FOR is still up for discussion. (Scott Dorsey has some of the wildest stories. If they ain't true, they aughta be!) -- ================== EVE BUTTERLY ======================== ======== Production Manager, Script Supervisor ========= =================== Dallas, Texas ====================== ============ http://web2.airmail.net/eve =============== I have enough money to last me the rest of my life, assuming I die before 10 this morning. Please call before then for rates and availability. ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: peterh5322@aol.com (Peter) Date: 14 Jan 2001 20:48:09 GMT -------- Eve Butterly eve@airmail.net added ... >> Everybody knows the term MEANS "mit out sound." >> To which I add ... "Everyone who has never worked in the industry, and who gets all their information second-hand from books, from AC or from other general circulation publications, 'knows' MOS means 'Mit Out Sound'." ... and ... "This is the Net, sir! When the MOS 'legend' becomes fact, we repeat the legend. Ad nauseum." ======================= Subject: Re: Origin of the term "MOS" ?? From: kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) Date: 19 Jan 2001 11:03:34 -0500 -------- Eve Butterly <eve@airmail.net> wrote: >Everybody knows the term MEANS "mit out sound." >What it orginally STOOD FOR is still up for discussion. (Scott Dorsey has >some of the wildest stories. If they ain't true, they aughta be!) Thank you. I figure if the origin is truly lost in legend, we might as well just help the legends along. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 More legends on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_(filmmaking) I have always been told that Eric Von Stroheim denied coming up with the phrase, but agreed that it was a popular legend. Nowadays, I think all shoots should be called "MOF": Mit Out Film! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordi Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 Too many acronyms out there as it is... A recent project I was doing, they kept on referring to shooting the next shot "OTF" which I spent most of the day thinking they just couldn't say the letter "S" for some reason, b/c they almost never took the camera off the poor operator's shoulder. I don't think that was the real definition, but I still don't know what the heck they were abbreviating by saying OTF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrider Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 OTF ..."On The Fly" a quick informal intterview often used on reality shows to build the narrative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordi Posted May 30, 2012 Report Share Posted May 30, 2012 Thanks! The first part (the definition) makes sense for how they were shooting... The rest (quick / informal interview to build narrative)... Not so much. They shot the ENTIRE THING this way, with no planning or discussion of what they wanted to shoot at all. Most haphazard way of working I've ever experienced. Probably why the angry muppets decided to toss me out at their earliest opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 If somebody told me "OTF," I would say "WTF?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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