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Hidden lavs for run-and-go-style shoots?


Nima

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Short version (if you don't have time to read the whole thing):

I've been looking at the threads on lavs, and one thing I don't see discussed is
which lavs are well-suited to mount to talents as fast as possible
, with as little consequence as possible? (eg. as little trial and error as possible before I can get rid of muffled audio, clothing rustle, etc.).

I will need to look at the following:

- Accessories that will work wonders with the mic in question (eg. COS-11 Vampire clip).

- Flat vs. other versions?

- Cable noise?

My budget is unlimited (since the most expensive lavs I know aren't more than $600-700).

Background info (If you have an extra minute):

I'm still pretty inexperienced, and have only used the COS-11, Trams, and some larger Sony ones (all of which were mostly impossible when it came to clothing noise! The only place I could get them working is in the middle of women's chest, if they had larger chests.).

I will always, always boom as well,

but I rarely know what the interviewee will wear beforehand, and I rarely know their body type, whether they have body hair or not, etc. Usually, I find out the details on the spot 10-20 minutes before we have to shoot.

I'm gonna try to wear the worse possible fabric I have and go try some lavs out at the store, and/or rent a couple.

I'm thinking about trying the following:

- Tram

-- I've tried it, and I may have been lucky on that shoot, but it worked really well!

-- Some pretty good advice were given on mounting the Tram in the book
Location Audio Simplified

- COS-11

-- I've already tried it, and it took me ages to get it right, and with some of the talents I was taking too long so I was asked to just boom (but I didn't have the VCLIP and didn't know about it either.

- EMW

- B6

- DPA 4060 and 4061 (if they have them in store)

- Any other recommendations?

Note:

I know the question/scenario is stupid, and I know that if I was more experienced I may have been able to get any lav to work with anybody. But I'm not, so if you find this thread stupid, please ignore it (and let it die), if you choose to answer, I will appreciate it.

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These are the kind of questions that are amusing and irksome. Why? because people are asking for a magic bullet and there is no such thing. I get paid what I do because I know how to troubleshoot a situation on the spot and make it work. I make it look easy. I can do this because I have 25+ years of doing this. Nothing else can replace experience. Only someone without experience can ask this question thinking that if they buy some magical lav that when used will solve all clothing/sound problems in every situation.

It doesn't matter what we say here. There is no such lav and there will NEVER be such a lav. The variables are too great in too many areas for there to be such a lav. Clothing; what they wear, what it's made of, how tight it is, how it lays, layers. Actors; how they move, hair, stubble, heavy nose breather, soft talker, load talker, sibilant talker, body language. Weather, windy, still, rain. And a lot more shit that I don't feel like typing.

All this and you want to know what one mic will do it all. The funny thing is there are people here that will tell you what mic to buy because it works for them. Well here's the news flash, You can make any mic work for you. It's not the mic 99% of the time but how you use it. What worked in one situation won't always work in another, even if they are similar situations. Even if it's the same actor in the same clothes doing the same actions. That's the Voodoo of radio mics. You troubleshoot that shit as it pops up and you better have some tricks up your sleeve or you're screwed.

You are asking us to look into a crystal ball and tell you what will work. Here's the answer, what works is years and years of trial and error.

Sorry if this seems harsh but these questions are like asking "How long is a board?".

PS. Just saw the note at the end of the OP's post. My opinion of you just went up seeing that you realize the futility of such a question. I guess I should of read the whole post before I went off on my rant, but seeing as I went through all the trouble of typing it I'll leave it up. FLAME ON!!

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Any tips on using this? I own one, but sound seems to travel across the belt too easily which then travels to the mic head.

Are you use only chest belt?

Because I didn't hear this you say.

Have it tightly.

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At the risk of piling on, I've got to echo that Mirror's response is by far the most applicable one in the entire thread.

When I see these innocently asked "what mic should I use to get great sound" questions (usually they mean while spending only pocket change) the answer that springs to mind (and I normally refrain from saying it) is that's like asking an experienced mechanic, "What wrench should I buy to be able to work on most cars and be a great mechanic?"

In both cases we're talking tools, and professionals in both professions have the tools they need at hand and have the years of experience to know how to use them.

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I have a pouch of top stick and some little scissors at the ready. Whenever I recover a COS-11 from talent, I cut a new square of top stick and stick on the rubber mount. When I go to wire someone, need it quick and will work, just pull off the paper on the top stick, stuck, done. Otherwise, I'll pull the COS-11 out of the rubber mount and use some other form of clip or tape. I have Rycote stickies, undercovers, moleskin, and other supplies in my hip bag. I also have a couple of B6 standing by if all else fails.

Yeah, at the end of the day, my rubber mounts can have many layers of top stick tape layered upon each other - a top stick suspension of sorts.

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A tracheotomy also works well. You shove the mic in, and it gets really close to the vocal chords. Use a B6, it's kinda wet in there. And talent has to wear a buttoned up shirt or a turtle neck to conceal the cable coming out of their throat.

I find that with this placement it sounds much too gutteral for my tastes. And when production insists on an open shirt, threading the cable out of sight can be pretty tricky -- a Lav Bullet can help to drop it down, but it's especially hard to retreive the Lav Bullet and connect the transmitter.

YMMV!

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Cos-11's work for me in every situation, quickly and effectively. Work and experiment with different mounts, I find either a Hushlav and some Joe's or a Rycote stickie and Undercover work 9/10 times, only rarely do I have to get creative.

I did use the hushlav as well, but I couldn't get it working (EDIT: i.e. I would still get rustle). Also tried the undercovers, but didn't have Joe's at the time. Hmmm, I already know I need more experience, but this does remind me that I do need to search out some sort of apprenticeship. My apologies about the question, but thanks for answering it anyways.

These are the kind of questions that are amusing and irksome. Why? because people are asking for a magic bullet and there is no such thing. I get paid what I do because I know how to troubleshoot a situation on the spot and make it work. I make it look easy. I can do this because I have 25+ years ...

I fully respect that, and sorry to offend you with my question. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be many books that detail mounting-methods. I have not had a chance to shadow someone like you here in Toronto. But if I find the opportunity, I will jump on it. To begin with, I want to buy a lav to learn with, and to use on shoots. The recommendations above will suffice as a starting point, and I am grateful for that. Thanks for your time.

http://www.neopax.biz/products.html

NeoPax Chest Belt. And what did say Jon Gilbert.

Cool product, thanks for that!

...professionals in both professions have the tools they need at hand and have the years of experience to know how to use them.

Indeed, but I do need to start somewhere. Or do you suggest I decline to do shoots from now on and tell them to go increase their budgets and go look for professionals, as I simply have way too much to learn and prefer to stay in my bedroom on my days off work? I need to start somewhere, and all I was stupidly asking for, was some sort of a starting point. I did describe the nature of the shoots I do. And everything else I could detail at this point. I need to buy a mic, and learn with it. So "which mic do you people as professionals recommend given my situation". I don't expect the gods to do miracles and wonders, but I do want the best possible mic to learn with, rather than something I will want to sell in a year. Sorry to offend you, I'll go back to Gearslutz with questions like these or will just ask my local retailer instead.

Just do this. It works every time and no one will ever see it. Wait...

Thanks.

I have a pouch of top stick and some little scissors at the ready. Whenever I recover a COS-11 from talent, I cut a new square of top stick and stick on the rubber mount. When I go to wire someone, need it quick and will work, just pull off the paper on the top stick, stuck, done. Otherwise, I'll pull the COS-11 out of the rubber mount and use some other form of clip or tape. I have Rycote stickies, undercovers, moleskin, and other supplies in my hip bag. I also have a couple of B6 standing by if all else fails.

Yeah, at the end of the day, my rubber mounts can have many layers of top stick tape layered upon each other - a top stick suspension of sorts.

Thanks for the great reply! I truly appreciate it!

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I frequently staple it to the cast/talent's body. Typically to their chin.

That's disgusting, I'd prefer super-glue.

A tracheotomy also works well. You shove the mic in, and it gets really close to the vocal chords. Use a B6, it's kinda wet in there. And talent has to wear a buttoned up shirt or a turtle neck to conceal the cable coming out of their throat.

I tried it once, but it sounded a bit muffled. Someone told me of this trick where you replace the upper wisdom teeth with lavs. It's supposed to sound really good. And you get a nice stereo image.

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Nima, don't be dis-heartened by the jaded comments. Ask any question you want to here at jwsound. You did write your disclaimer in red and you still got ridiculed, I feel sorry for you.

If I were in your position, I would buy Sanken COS 11. I mostly use COS 11 without any mount at all, just with sports tape, in between 2 pieces.

Depending on what the talent wears, either stick to skin or clothing.

They also work well poking through a button hole, hidden in plain sight.

For wind protection, use the metal gag that comes with it with some fluffy, double sided and sports tape. The Sanken is small and easy to hide and can acheive excellent results.

Practice as much as you can at home with partner and friends etc.

Good luck

Mega

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...

Indeed, but I do need to start somewhere. Or do you suggest I decline to do shoots from now on and tell them to go increase their budgets and go look for professionals, as I simply have way too much to learn and prefer to stay in my bedroom on my days off work? I need to start somewhere, and all I was stupidly asking for, was some sort of a starting point. I did describe the nature of the shoots I do. And everything else I could detail at this point. I need to buy a mic, and learn with it. So "which mic do you people as professionals recommend given my situation". I don't expect the gods to do miracles and wonders, but I do want the best possible mic to learn with, rather than something I will want to sell in a year. Sorry to offend you, I'll go back to Gearslutz with questions like these or will just ask my local retailer instead.

...

Way too defensive. Please, please, please... don't take things so personally.

If you are really sincere about learning, and I don't doubt you are, I suggest you listen, pay attention, glean the wisdom and feeback from all responses, whether they're what you want to hear or not, and please have enough respect of professionals to understand that viewpoints about professionalism are not all aimed at you personally. And they contain important knowledge for anyone who actually desires to become a professional.

I promise you, over time, you will learn so much more that way.

One thing I would suggest you do -- and I'm surprised you haven't done so already given your desire to learn -- is diligently comb the archives of this site where you will find numerous threads about lavs and lav techniques with many of those discussions going deeply into the nuances of the black arts of lav choice and placement.

Or, you could ask professionals what mic you should buy in order to be able to hide mics like a professional. The problem with that is, the best answer is that you should buy any decent lav you can get your hands on and practice, practice, practice, practice, practice with it -- and that's not what you wanted to hear.

A Stradivarius will not make you a fiddle player and I think you'd be hard put to name a single world-class violin virtuoso who began practicing on a Strad. It's the practice that made them a professional, not the instrument. In the hands of a professional, however, the instrument can create magic.

So, you can either listen and learn or you can get irate and claim someone else is preventing you from pursuing your chosen path. I suggest the former avenue -- it's much healthier for everyone. I know my mental health will benefit -- and it's shaky, at best.

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I do a fair amount of run+gun reality/doc work where they expect hidden lavs. I also do some films, so I learned to do this hiding lavs.

Depends on the clothing, but my first instinct is the COS-11. The countryman B6 and EMW are great for run+gun work. Mounting is often mole skin or surgical tape. I kind of go through phases with what I like. On films, I find the best for a given wardrobe since I will probably see it a lot. Same when I am wiring people in a uniform. I think where you mount it is as important as what mounting method you use. that comes with experience. I don't mean that in a snotty way, but there is no simple silver bullet method that I have found. I don't dislike the trams, but I think there are better options when hiding comes into play.

That said, even the best mounting job ever can get foiled when the subject puts on a sweater because it's cold, or (god forbid) zips up a nylon windbreaker.

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Like others have said, there is no 'perfect' lav or placement that works universally. Even the same mic placed on the same spot with two actors in the same outfit may not sound the same, just because of the biological differences in the individuals....That said, there are some things that do run pretty consistent.

Neopax are way cool, super fast, and according to the talent I have used them on, very comfy. -The chest belt is especially helpful with skin that has allergies to adhesives. I would have at least 2 of every size if I were buying for a basic kit.

Cos-11 is what every mixer I have worked with is using. There are others in the kit, but the cos-11 is the first one in line for normal applications.

Lav-Bullet or equivalent is a must for fast wiring

RM-11 is a solid and standard mount and will be a staple in your kit. That said, there are other methods that are fast, good, and sonically clean as well. Experience, trial, and error will be your best teacher here. Start with the search function for some really great info on this topic.

Speed comes as a function of experience.

The corollary (to borrow from my target archery days) is that experience will also teach you that a fast miss is far worse than a slow hit.

As far as the fastest kit to wire its an impossible question because we have no idea the wardrobe, the actor, or the shooting conditions.... but as a point of reference, a normal adult male wearing a regular button up business dress shirt, slacks and shoes, working in a decent sound environment should be able to walk away from your cart in under one minute ready to deliver lines on camera.

Start discussing fabrics (silk), wool sweaters, wind, chest carpets, ties, or a million other things, and the timeline can go right in the toilet.

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Hi Nina. I'm also a big fan of the COS-11. I almost always use the rubber mount with it. I prefer 3M Transpore tape (the plastic version, although I haven't tried the paper Transpore). It's available at Shoppers Drug Mart etc. in the first aid section. I also use the B6, in the knot of a tie, or poking through a buttonhole. it's always a work in progress getting good results. If you are getting noise problems during a take (if it's a drama type show, or presentation where you can stop a take ) don't hestitate to let the production know, and try and fix it before the next take. If it's a reality show, you just gotta roll with it until you can fix it. keep your boom handy. Saved my butt many times. If there's a wardrobe person, be nice to them, even when they do something stupid like give the performer a shoulder bag right after rehearsal and before the take, which sits on the hidden mic Grrrrrr! They are not aware of your problems , so let them know, nicely.

Chris Newton

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