Hidden lavs for run-and-go-style shoots?

[Martin Kittappa]

Rycote Stickies and Overcovers are my best friend in these situations- I can hide a mic on most talent in seconds with these things- The Overcovers help reduce wind noise outside and are pretty good at knocking out clothing noise too. They are hypo-allergenic to stick on the skin, also works on an undershirt or vest, behind ties or between buttons on shirts.

They work well with my Cos11s. Just be sure that there is a little slack in the cable, and if possible secure it with a piece of surgical tape, because I've had issues if the cable is tight when the talent moves the mic can get pulled out of the sticky.

[Jack Norflus]

Just be sure that there is a little slack in the cable, or secure it with a piece of surgical tape, because I've had issues if the cable is tight when the talent moves the mic can get pulled out of the sticky.

Plus a tight cable will most likely cause noise.

[Toy Robot]

Nima, I hope I didn't offend with my picture. It was meant to be funny. I don't know who did that lav rig in the photo but it's wild and I thought it would set a bit of a lighter tone.

[jason porter]

I usually just use a COS-11 or Tram with a vampire clip for quick mounting/dismounting. I do a lot of run-n-gun style interviews and this seems to work well for quick standups. If we are spending a lot of time following a character, the snot tape, transpore, moleskin etc gets pulled out.

[Nima]

If I were in your position, I would buy Sanken COS 11. I mostly use COS 11 without any mount at all, just with sports tape, in between 2 pieces.

Thanks so much for that! And I actually made the text red after I saw some of the posts above. No need to feel sorry though, I have myself to blame for the nature of the question. But looots of COS-11 recommendations up here, so it must mean something.

Way too defensive. Please, please, please... don't take things so personally.

If you are really sincere about learning, and I don't doubt you are, I suggest you listen, pay attention, glean the wisdom and feeback from all responses, whether they're what you want to hear or not, and please have enough respect of professionals to understand that viewpoints about professionalism are not all aimed at you personally. And they contain important knowledge for anyone who actually desires to become a professional.

[,,,] One thing I would suggest you do -- and I'm surprised you haven't done so already given your desire to learn -- is diligently comb the archives of this site where you will find numerous threads about lavs and lav techniques with many of those discussions going deeply into the nuances of the black arts of lav choice and placement...

Re: Taking things personally... Sorry if it came off that way. I don't take things personally (or at least I try to never do so), I meant that sincerely, i.e. that I will go to Gearslutz and my retailer. However, you did raise a good point. I had only searched the equipment-forum for posts on lavs (EDIT: actually I'm not sure how I had searched, as I see 3 pages of pretty good stuff even just searching for lav in the equipment-forum, I remember only seeing 2 pages earlier, anyways...). But now I have more than 100 pages printed out from various posts on lavs. And to your point... I need to read them, and if I still have questions I will ask them. Some people may choose to ridicule, so be it. I don't care, I need to learn. But someone here once pointed out that I will get those kind of answers if I have uneducated questions in this forum. Point taken. Back to the drawing board for some research. Nonetheless, even by asking an uneducated question here, I was pointed in a good direction by many helpful users. Your last post being one of them. Thanks for taking the time.

I do a fair amount of run+gun reality/doc work where they expect hidden lavs. I also do some films, so I learned to do this hiding lavs.

Depends on the clothing, but my first instinct is the COS-11. The countryman B6 and EMW are great for run+gun work. Mounting is often mole skin or surgical tape...

Thanks a great deal for sharing your choices and the points you raised! So does that mean you find yourself using the COS-11 less for run+gun-situations and if so, why?

[...]RM-11 is a solid and standard mount and will be a staple in your kit. That said, there are other methods that are fast, good, and sonically clean as well. Experience, trial, and error will be your best teacher here. Start with the search function for some really great info on this topic.

[...]

As far as the fastest kit to wire its an impossible question because we have no idea the wardrobe, the actor, or the shooting conditions.... but as a point of reference, a normal adult male wearing a regular button up business dress shirt, slacks and shoes, working in a decent sound environment should be able to walk away from your cart in under one minute ready to deliver lines on camera.

Start discussing fabrics (silk), wool sweaters, wind, chest carpets, ties, or a million other things, and the timeline can go right in the toilet.

Wow! A minute! I have a lot of work to do! If it's a woman without cleavage I end up spending maybe closer to five minutes to figure it out, and many times it's because I run out of time and simply have to live with rustle on the lav, and rely on the boom. The RM-11 isn't part of the rental I believe, but maybe I can add it next time I rent them, or just try them in store, before I purchase them. Thanks so much!

Hi Nina. I'm also a big fan of the COS-11. I almost always use the rubber mount with it. I prefer 3M Transpore tape (the plastic version, although I haven't tried the paper Transpore). It's available at Shoppers Drug Mart etc. in the first aid section. I also use the B6, in the knot of a tie, or poking through a buttonhole...

Thanks so much Chris! Great suggestions!

Rycote Stickies and Overcovers are my best friend in these situations- I can hide a mic on most talent in seconds with these things- The Overcovers help reduce wind noise outside and are pretty good at knocking out clothing noise too. They are hypo-allergenic to stick on the skin, also works on an undershirt or vest, behind ties or between buttons on shirts.

They work well with my Cos11s. Just be sure that there is a little slack in the cable, and if possible secure it with a piece of surgical tape, because I've had issues if the cable is tight when the talent moves the mic can get pulled out of the sticky.

I really have to check those overcovers out, I find sometimes the undercovers don't help me out at all. I also have to practice finding that perfect balance between too much slack and too little slack. Also, I'm not the one micing the females (my producer does that), I only mic males. Which may seem odd, but that's the way we work. We deal with a lot of people who have never been on camera before, and so it's the best way to avoid conflict. So basically what I do is dress the lav, and give it to the producer. If undercovers don't work, I'll try moleskin, if moleskin doesn't work I try something else and so forth. But now I want to buy one to practice at home with, and it looks like the strongest contender is the COS-11.

Plus a tight cable will most likely cause noise.

Good point! Thanks!

Nima, I hope I didn't offend with my picture. It was meant to be funny. I don't know who did that lav rig in the photo but it's wild and I thought it would set a bit of a lighter tone.

Actually I'm the one who should be apologizing for totally ignoring that it was a joke. I was too focused on being serious (never a good thing!). Thanks for checking man!

I usually just use a COS-11 or Tram with a vampire clip for quick mounting/dismounting. I do a lot of run-n-gun style interviews and this seems to work well for quick standups. If we are spending a lot of time following a character, the snot tape, transpore, moleskin etc gets pulled out.

Yeah I really have to try the vampire clips. Do you use tape to not poke holes in the clothes of the talents? Or what do you do when they don't want holes in their clothes?

------

Folks, all of you, I realize I posed an uneducated question, so I am candidly grateful for the answers I've gotten. Yes, even the angry ones! You've helped me research the topic much better, and one wonderful user even sent me pictures and a description of one of their fast lav rigs. This is a great place to learn and I hope to contribute with more educated posts in the future.

[jason porter]

I don't worry about holes, but I would never use one on a shirt that would get damaged by the vampire clip (like silk). An inch or so of Transpore (3M) works in 90% of situations as well.

[berniebeaudry]

Just do this. It works every time and no one will ever see it. Wait...

Typical local TV news rigging. Just missing the always present giant foam windscreen.

[Marc Wielage]

I just had a documentary cameraman ask me about this today, and he told me he was totally perplexed as to how I managed to get very good (or at least usable) sound on my shoots with him, but when he was on his own, he couldn't figure out how to solve lav noise problems. He was convinced that somebody must make a lav that could magically resist all noise around it.

I laughed and said, "short of making a microphone with a built-in force field, this doesn't exist in the real world. The answer is, there is no one solution -- there's a hundred different solutions, and we try a bunch of them just through experience and hope for the best."

A B6 and Undercoats often work for me, but I'll jump through hoops if I have to. Ain't no magic bullet (though there is a Lav Bullet).

[Sean McCormick]

Hiding lav's as I see it is like Yoga. You never master it, you just get better as you practice it.

[Martin Kittappa]

Don't forget that mic'ing people means that you do have to get up close and personal so always explain clearly what you are doing to people i.e. when you are tucking a cable into people pants etc, especially if they are non media type folks who have probably never worn a mic before.

Also ALWAYS have a witness when mic'ing kids- I once had a situation where I had to hide a mic on nine year old girl- the AD just said 'Take her in that room and mic her up in there as quick as you can we need to shoot' I told him that I want either the parent or studio teacher to be there and I'm sorry if this slows your shot down, but I need to cover myself. It just takes one kid to take a dislike to you and make an accusation and you'll be in for a world of hurt, even if the accusation is false.

[Aronprigg]

I do a lot of run and gun and I have settled on trams for most situations with a vampire. I think it's just experience and knowing the characteristics of your mic and the fabric your confronting and finding the pocket where it's open, yet hidden. And as for worrying about poking holes in fabric, i don't. You need to find a spot with 2 layers of fabric and slide the teeth through the first layer but don't let it poke through the outer layer.

[John Blankenship]

Nima,

I don't think any of the responses sent your way were "angry," but a couple, including mine, were, no doubt, unsettlingly direct.

No offense was meant and, as I made the point later, mine was intended as more general than personal. What may not be obvious is how many thousands of times those of us who have worked in the field for a good while get asked, "What microphone should i buy?" with the subtext of the question being "What microphone will make me a professional sound person?" Of course, the real answer is "none." And this is where my "mechanic" analogy comes in. Would someone really ask a professional mechanic what wrench to buy in order to be a professional mechanic? No, because in that situation it's obvious that he/she needs a complete toolbox and the experience to know how to use them.

But, along with the advent of some of our more cost-effective new sound tools, is an influx of newbies buying a mixer and a mic and declaring themself a professional. The emphasis, in other words, is very much on the gear -- since they can buy that -- but little emphasis is placed on the years of experience it takes to know how to use the equipment well under a variety of conditions They often pay lip-service to experience, but it's obvious by the focus of the discussions that the toys are the attraction.

But, again, that wasn't aimed specifically at you and I apologize if it seemed too harsh by subverting your thread with a rant. However, I credit you for looking past that part and allowing my words to help inform your quest. It's people like you who give one hope that actually learning the craft is still important to some.

BTW: For lavs, I use many, including Sanken COS-11, DPA 4060 & 4061, Countryman B6 & EMW, Tram TR-50, Sennheiser MKE2, and a few others. I agree that the Sanken is a good choice and is one of the most common quality lavs in use. DPA lavs have a bit better sound but are trickier to hide successfully.

I seldem use the Rycote Undercovers but deploy Overcovers (including under clothing) and Hush Lavs on a regular basis. I don't use the Stickies too much as I find they don't hold as well as some of the other options such as Topstick.

[JDirckze]

Speaking of Topstick (sorry for the brief hijack), which particular Topstick product do most prefer? The rolls or the precut strips?

AFAIK Topstick isn't available locally and I'm thinking of trying some out but need to order from the US.

Cheers,

Jase

---

I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?a0vskt

[John Blankenship]

Speaking of Topstick (sorry for the brief hijack), which particular Topstick product do most prefer? The rolls or the precut strips?

AFAIK Topstick isn't available locally and I'm thinking of trying some out but need to order from the US.

Generally, strips, such as:

http://www.trewaudio...8&cat=99&page=1

[JDirckze]

Thanks John!

---

I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?jnzl1r

[soundslikejustin]

Jason, many chemists stock Toupee Tape, which is pretty similar to Topstick. And, in a pinch, I've found 'boob tape' in Forever New (ladies fashion store) - pretty much any chain where strapless dresses are sold carries something like it.

[Peter Mega]

This stuff called Coban is a self adherent bandage which is great for thigh mount of TX. Its not sticky and does not stick to skin but sticks to itself like s#%t to a shovel. It will not slip down the leg like some straps do.

You could also use it to wrap around the chest area on men for example and then stick a lav to that.

Again, it will not stick to anything but itself so no worries about pulling hair etc. It's pretty cool stuff.

http://products3.3m.com/catalog/au/en005/healthcare/medical/node_HQNBS3VWBLbe/root_D58K9TX3VWgv/vroot_RB2X68D0SCge/gvel_SXJDGZDK2Lgl/theme_au_medical_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html

Cheers

Mega

PS sorry about the weird link, writing this on my phone

[JDirckze]

Jason, many chemists stock Toupee Tape, which is pretty similar to Topstick. And, in a pinch, I've found 'boob tape' in Forever New (ladies fashion store) - pretty much any chain where strapless dresses are sold carries something like it.

Thanks for the tip SLJ!

[Toy Robot]

This stuff called Coban is a self adherent bandage which is great for thigh mount of TX. Its not sticky and does not stick to skin but sticks to itself like s#%t to a shovel. It will not slip down the leg like some straps do.

You could also use it to wrap around the chest area on men for example and then stick a lav to that.

Again, it will not stick to anything but itself so no worries about pulling hair etc. It's pretty cool stuff.

http://products3.3m....ler/output_html

Cheers

Mega

PS sorry about the weird link, writing this on my phone

Great tip. I've been hunting for some way to prevent the neopax pouches from sliding down ladies' legs, but I think I'll try using this stuff in those situations and bypass the neopax entirely.

Always something new to buy...

[johnpaul215]

Thanks a great deal for sharing your choices and the points you raised! So does that mean you find yourself using the COS-11 less for run+gun-situations and if so, why?

No, the COS-11 is my first choice for everything. Sounds great, durable. The B6 has moments where it really shines being tiny, waterproof and generally awesome. I own EMWs, but don't use them a ton. Also very small and very waterproof. I use one with my MM400 when things are going to get wet (water or tons of fake blood). I do sometimes work for a company that owns sound kits and they exclusively use EMWs. They find them the best bang for their buck. I have also worked for traveling reality shows where the kits came with EMWs. It was a competition show with physical tasks and running around. EMWs and mole skin. worked great. They are a lot cheaper than the COS-11, and that adds up when you are buying 20+ at a time.

[Nima]

I don't worry about holes, but I would never use one on a shirt that would get damaged by the vampire clip (like silk). An inch or so of Transpore (3M) works in 90% of situations as well.

Interesting! I'll have to try that!

[...] He was convinced that somebody must make a lav that could magically resist all noise around it.

I laughed and said, "short of making a microphone with a built-in force field, this doesn't exist in the real world. The answer is, there is no one solution -- there's a hundred different solutions, and we try a bunch of them just through experience and hope for the best."

A B6 and Undercoats often work for me, but I'll jump through hoops if I have to. Ain't no magic bullet(though there is a Lav Bullet).

That would be nice, and a camera that can shoot perfectly without you having to do anything... and an automated director... an automated technician... and an automated script-writing software, music composer, editor, etc. I will have to go back to school and a find a different career-path. Except... there will be automated teachers and students. I'll just move to Mars and start a new life there. But until that day, it seems I simply have to figure out how to work a lav.

Now, if you were to start out trying to slowly build up 25+ years of experience, which lav would you start out with? In other words, that'll be the main lav that you will be practicing with at home, and take to your shoots until you can afford another one. Provided you think one can survive practicing on just one lav for a while. Keep in mind, I never/extremely seldom do outdoor stuff. And also, with very few exceptions, I almost never know what the talent will be wearing, as there is no wardrobe department, and if there is, it usually means bigger budgets, which usually means I'm not the sound guy. Looking at the recommendations above, and, after having started this thread, I searched for the COS-11 here, and this forum seems to have lots of info on mounting options and other recommendations related to that mic. Now a user here (not sure if I may name them) sent me a remarkably detailed guide to a rig, using a DPA-4071. The options are many. Having used the B6, and I'm sure, many others, which one would you use as your start-up practice lav-mic, and why (I have a job that allows me to save up for these things, at least during the summer -- but I would like to focus on getting to know one mic at a time, if that makes sense)?

Hiding lav's as I see it is like Yoga. You never master it, you just get better as you practice it.

It'd be nice to go to the gym and learn from an experienced sound-instructor. I'd totally get a membership.

[...] Also ALWAYS have a witness when mic'ing kids- I once had a situation where I had to hide a mic on nine year old girl- the AD just said 'Take her in that room and mic her up in there as quick as you can we need to shoot' I told him that I want either the parent or studio teacher to be there and I'm sorry if this slows your shot down, but I need to cover myself. It just takes one kid to take a dislike to you and make an accusation and you'll be in for a world of hurt, even if the accusation is false.

I'm not sure if I would have thought of that if you wouldn't have brought that up. Thanks so much for that! With my producer, on her request, I just leave all the touchy stuff to her, if we deal with women (which is pretty much 80% of the time at this point). That's how she has always worked, and I'm not gonna argue with her on that one. With guys, it's me. But kids are another issue one has to take into consideration. I haven't dealt with kids so far, but if I happen to deal with a kid, even if the kid is a boy, I will take your recommendation to heart. I'm really glad you brought that up! Thanks!

I do a lot of run and gun and I have settled on trams for most situations with a vampire. I think it's just experience and knowing the characteristics of your mic and the fabric your confronting and finding the pocket where it's open, yet hidden. And as for worrying about poking holes in fabric, i don't. You need to find a spot with 2 layers of fabric and slide the teeth through the first layer but don't let it poke through the outer layer.

That's the key I'm looking for, to know the characteristics of my mic, that is. Great advice there! But you're making it difficult for me. I have a book that shows some mounting options for the Tram (Location Audio Simplified). Regardless of which mic I go for, it seems vampire clips is definitely something I must gain experience with. Great advice on the layers there too! Thanks so much!

I don't think any of the responses sent your way were "angry," but a couple, including mine, were, no doubt, unsettlingly direct.

You know what, I was just referring to that FLAME-ON!-line, but having read them over again, I totally agree with you. No one here has expressed any anger. So I retract that statement

Would someone really ask a professional mechanic what wrench to buy in order to be a professional mechanic? No, because in that situation it's obvious that he/she needs a complete toolbox and the experience to know how to use them.

You're right, but it's hard to resist the temptation of asking the professional mechanic for advice on a start-up toolbox to practice and learn with. In this case, I could not resist that temptation.

[...] BTW: For lavs, I use many, including Sanken COS-11, DPA 4060 & 4061, Countryman B6 & EMW, Tram TR-50, Sennheiser MKE2, and a few others. I agree that the Sanken is a good choice and is one of the most common quality lavs in use. DPA lavs have a bit better sound but are trickier to hide successfully.

I seldem use the Rycote Undercovers but deploy Overcovers (including under clothing) and Hush Lavs on a regular basis. I don't use the Stickies too much as I find they don't hold as well as some of the other options such as Topstick.

First of all, thanks for the encouraging words, preceding the quote above. And secondly, thanks so much for sharing your list of lavs, as well as some of the tools you use. I'll definitely make sure to buy some overcovers to experiment with, once I've decided on a mic. And again, it looks like the COS-11 is the strongest contender. Previously, I was thinking about the DPA's, but it looks like I may have a hard time with them (given my limited experience). Sort of like trying to learn the piano by choosing a really difficult virtuoso-piece (which may also have less alternative scores, and YouTube videos explaining how to play the piece), and the discouragement that may follow. If that analogy makes sense. Thanks again, John!

[...] And, in a pinch, I've found 'boob tape' in Forever New (ladies fashion store) - pretty much any chain where strapless dresses are sold carries something like it.

Boob tape! Never heard of that! I'll look into that as well!

This stuff called Coban is a self adherent bandage which is great for thigh mount of TX. Its not sticky and does not stick to skin but sticks to itself like s#%t to a shovel. It will not slip down the leg like some straps do.

You could also use it to wrap around the chest area on men for example and then stick a lav to that.

Again, it will not stick to anything but itself so no worries about pulling hair etc. It's pretty cool stuff.

http://products3.3m....ler/output_html

Cheers

Mega

PS sorry about the weird link, writing this on my phone

Wireless! Luckily, most of our talent stay stationary, which means I can hard-wire them. I don't think I can afford to buy a lectro-kit for practicing-purposes. I may or may not gor for a G3, one day, but I prefer to buy a lav and a mic at this point, and rent on shoot-by-shoot basis for now. I do get to use the lectros/microns/g3's every once in a while, albeit seldom, but still... for the next one, I should look into being equipped with something like that. Thanks so much for sharing that!

No, the COS-11 is my first choice for everything. Sounds great, durable. The B6 has moments where it really shines being tiny, waterproof and generally awesome. I own EMWs, but don't use them a ton. Also very small and very waterproof. I use one with my MM400 when things are going to get wet (water or tons of fake blood). I do sometimes work for a company that owns sound kits and they exclusively use EMWs. They find them the best bang for their buck. I have also worked for traveling reality shows where the kits came with EMWs. It was a competition show with physical tasks and running around. EMWs and mole skin. worked great. They are a lot cheaper than the COS-11, and that adds up when you are buying 20+ at a time.

Great! I don't usually do anything that needs to be waterproofed, and 98% of the time I'm recording testimonials, one person at a time. So that makes choosing a mic much easier, at least between the three you mentioned. Thanks!!

[Mirror]

NIma, Have you ever boomed or been a 3rd for another sound crew?

[Jan McL]

I've not read this thread but for the first 3 or 4 responses.

Tell you what, for $2k I'll spend an 8-hour day with you and we'll wire the crap out of a bunch of different costumes, with a bunch of different mics and show you everything I know.

[Nima]

NIma, Have you ever boomed or been a 3rd for another sound crew?

I have used booms on all the shoots I've done, but I have never worked for a location sound crew. In other words, if I'm doing it wrong, I'm not aware of it. Do you think it's something I could do without prior experience working under a sound crew? I only started doing location sound little over a year ago on the side of my casual radio technician-job. And I wasn't really interested in it either, until I was asked to do it based on my experience in music and a little sound design as well. However, since I realized I had major shortcomings, I found myself interested in learning more, which made me realize I have an interest in it. That's why I am here on this forum now.

I've not read this thread but for the first 3 or 4 responses.

Tell you what, for $2k I'll spend an 8-hour day with you and we'll wire the crap out of a bunch of different costumes, with a bunch of different mics and show you everything I know.

If my dad was a Saudi Arabian king I would spend money on education all day long. But I'm done spending loan money on education for a while. I'll get back to you when/if my income increases. Nice stamp by the way. For now, I'll rely on the goodwill of people who have posted stuff on the internet, books, and eventual apprenticeships. Thanks for the offer!

[Mirror]

There lies the crux of your problem. You have never even seen anyone do the job you want to do. You are a very nice person and I applaud you for your spirit, enthusiasm and good nature. But you are so green that you don't even know what you don't know yet. You want to skip all the steps and jump to the end and say " I'm a mixer". In reality you have no business doing what you're doing. You are like soooo many that buy gear and proclaim that you are a mixer. To do your job right you need to work from the bottom up. Work for others and learn. You have not paid your dues and until you do that you don't deserve the knowledge that others have spent years learning. You are cheating yourself and others that you work for.

This may seem like a personal attack but it's not. It's the best advice you've gotten in this thread so far. Go work for someone else first and learn/earn your way to a career.

A friend,

Mirror