CAT 5 distribution setups

[JimMansen]

Thanks, Darren

Are any of these suitable for the transmission of quality audio or are we talking adequate video assist levels?  How have you been using yours? The quad audio box looks good if passes high quality audio.  How to tell?? I suspect that at that price point the transformers may not be as good as we would need for mic level radio receivers/ sound cart link?

Jim Mansen

[Darren]

Thanks, Darren

Are any of these suitable for the transmission of quality audio or are we talking adequate video assist levels?  How have you been using yours? The quad audio box looks good if passes high quality audio.  How to tell?? I suspect that at that price point the transformers may not be as good as we would need for mic level radio receivers/ sound cart link?

Jim Mansen

Jim,

Muxlab's specs:

The insertion loss is stated to be less than 1dB for audio.

I suppose that if one was so inclined, performing actual lab type measurements would not be that difficult.  The video signal is actually much more challenging to send than the audio, as it requires MUCH more bandwidth.  The video units are rated at DC - 8 mHz.

[Darren]

Muxlab's AES digital balun's specs:

[Darren]

How have you been using yours?

Jim Mansen

Currently, I am using a quad unit.  Receiving 2 channels of video assist, sending an audio feed for the video assist, and a comtek feed for the village, etc.

I have also used my audio baluns as a snake from the set, for playback and video playback.   I think that a feed to/from the pro tools operator would be another good use, when applicable.

At home, these baluns are practically running my whole house's a/v systems distribution at this point, including a long component video feed to my HD projector that doesn't look any different than the long, heavy, expensive, garden hose diameter component cable that it replaced.

[Richard Lightstone, CAS]

For simple analog use standard Cat 5 cable is fine. If you are going to use it for AES, then Cat 5e is recommended.

"Both CAT-5 and CAT-5e have 100 ohm impedance and electrical characteristics supporting transmissions up to 100 MHz. The differences between CAT-5 and CAT-5e show in all aspects of performance: capacitance, frequency, resistance, attenuation, and NEXT. CAT-5e components were designed with high-speed gigabit Ethernet in mind. While CAT-5 components may function to some degree in a gigabit Ethernet, they perform below standard during high-data transfer scenarios. CAT-5e cables work with ATM and gigabit speed products. Simply, if you are using a 100Mbps switch, get CAT-5e cable instead of CAT-5.

CAT-5e is formally called ANSI/TIA/EIA 568A-5 or simply Cat-5e (the e stands for 'enhanced'). CAT-5e is completely backward compatible with current CAT-5 equipment. The enhanced electrical performance of CAT-5e ensures that the cable will support applications that require additional bandwidth, such as gigabit Ethernet or analog video." http://www.connectworld.net/syscon/support.htm

RL

[Philip Perkins]

I'd like to see one of these on a scope w/ some high-volume audio and some peaky dialog etc..  Crappy transformers can get saturated in the low end easily (as in cheap direct boxes)--it depends on of you thought you wanted to use this thing as a mic-level snake or have preamps on-set (w/ low roll offs) and send line level audio down them back to your cart.  For wireless RX on line out (esp if you use the low freq rolloff on the TX) it seems like they'd be fine.

Philip Perkins

[JimMansen]

To rig an on set cart or tray w/ pre-amps etc to use line level inputs for the inexpensive transformers seems a little over the top.  I guess it is  one way to keep the costs of the system under control. I agree that somone with a scope could tell us more. The consensus seems to be that the lower cost transformers just don't do the job for recordable quality audio?? Or can they?

  I wonder If I could get Axiom to make a 8 channel digital version, or if you could divide one in half.  I'll take 8 tracks and you can have the other 8.  Wouldn't that make us both happy? 

Seriously I want to keep searching for answers here. Made some real progress I think.  Still have not found the ball park price of the Axiom digital system.

Thanks........Jim Mansen

[Richard Lightstone, CAS]

Jim,

AVIOM (not Axiom). To setup a system where you could send 16 channels of AES audio and return 16 channels of AES audio you would spend about $4600, just for the hardware.

At the "mixer cart", 1 AN-16/o (line level output module), 1 AN16/i (line level input module). The "set cart", 1 AN/16im (microphone input module), 1 AN/16o (line level output module).

http://www.aviom.com/Applications-2/Digital-Snakes.cfm

RL

[Darren]

For simple analog use standard Cat 5 cable is fine. If you are going to use it for AES, then Cat 5e is recommended.

RL

The difference between Cat5 and Cat5e is a very good point that was well worth bringing to everyone's attention.  Note that *all* of the Muxlabs baluns are spec'd for use with Cat5e/Cat6, not Cat5.

[John Steigerwald]

AVIOM (not Axiom). To setup a system where you could send 16 channels of AES audio and return 16 channels of AES audio you would spend about $4600, just for the hardware.

The Aviom system is it's own proprietary audio transport scheme.  It should not be confused with AES digital audio.

[JimMansen]

Thanks, Darren, Richard, John and Phil and others who have finally put my desire to use a remote cat5e set up between the cart and the set in proper perspective.  The digital answer is way too expensive for me to consider.  I see now why so many have decided to use the more affordable systems for video assist feeds and not for regular audio distribution. 

It is always amazing how much knowledge and skill is available from this discussion group, and that it is so willingly shared.  Thanks again

Jim Mansen

[Jeff Wexler]

I know I am late putting in my 2 cents but I want to first echo what Jim has said in appreciation for the knowledgeable, generous and helpful group we have here... you are all appreciated.

I will be doing some CAT5 snakes (possibly to remote wireless receivers to the set) along with the regular CAT5/balun setup I already use to go to and from video. I will be using product from InstaSnake which is described as follows:

"The ETS InstaSnake Series (PA200) gives a compact, lightweight, versatile passive group of components allowing you to run audio signals over a single run of CAT5 or 5E or 6 cables. With a roll of wire, these compact units are easily transported and/or stored solving dozens of live and/or recording sound problems. You can mix and match Mic/Line, Line or AES/EBU configurations making the InstaSnake a versatile high quality solution at affordable prices."

http://www.ramelectronics.net/music-sound/cables-and-accessories/snakes/cat5-balun-snakes/pa202p/prodPA202P.html

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[JimMansen]

Jeff,

Delighted to have your input.  Seems like you have found a reasonable answer to moving quality audio around the set on Cat 5.  Thank you for helping me find this choice.  Richard Lightstone mentions Cat 5E for the digital world.  Have you chosen 5 or 5e for your use? I would appreciate an evaluation after you put your system to work.  Do you already have the Instasnakes in hand? How do you anticipate putting them to use?

Jim Mansen

[Jeff Wexler]

I haven't put together a setup yet but I have seen and tested the InstaSnake products. They are a little pricey compared to the really low cost baluns that people are using for connection to video assist only, but they are higher quality construction (metal boxes and professional cable, connectors used) and I believe they spec out just fine even for full bandwidth audio.

My intended use will be just to have a 4-way 100 foot (or more) snake to go from the cart to the set. I have built several of these already with large 4-pair multicable before discovering the Cat5 route. Using the products from InstaSnake and quality Cat5e or Cat6 professional cable, the result will be longer snake with less weight/bulk than my previous efforts. I will use it to remote the wireless receivers (so that I am only running audio back to the cart) or as a sort of Stage Box to connect 2 regular duplex boom cables with monitor returns.

-  Jeff Wexler

[Matt McGowin]

Jeff, That seems like a good one .the picture only shows audio connectors. Do they make boxes with video and audio? personally, I prefer the neutrik connectors to the switchcraft connectors.

Matt

[JimMansen]

Thought I saw a mention of a 48v option for one of the sends?  Can't find it now. Is that how you would handle duplex option?

Jim Mansen

[studiomprd]

" Do they make boxes with video and audio?  "

I followed the link JW posted and

[Philip Perkins]

The Instasnake looks great, and the cost is reasonable considering how much four-pair mic cable costs and how big and heavy a coil you'd have hanging off the cart.  Thanks Jeff--let us know how it works out under fire.  (I love CAT5!)  I could see permanently mounting these things to my RX rack and my mixer, and going with a cat5 jumper on the cart but all ready to drop in a 100' run if I remoted the rack, w/ no disconnecting of XLRs.....

Philip Perkins

[Jeff Wexler]

Thought I saw a mention of a 48v option for one of the sends?  Can't find it now. Is that how you would handle duplex option?

Jim Mansen

All of the boxes pass 48v phantom power, no problem.

[Jeff Wexler]

Jeff, That seems like a good one .the picture only shows audio connectors. Do they make boxes with video and audio? personally, I prefer the neutrik connectors to the switchcraft connectors.

Matt

I think the InstaSnake product is all optimized for audio only. Also, they make boxes that have NO pigtails (so no connectors to consider on the ends of pigtails) and just the 4 panel mount connectors (any mix of male and female) and the CAT5 connector. Then you make your own jumpers from the boxes to the gear.

[Darren]

Jeff, That seems like a good one .the picture only shows audio connectors. Do they make boxes with video and audio?

Matt

[wolfvid]

from the lousy crosstalk specs alone I would not even use this in a home theater install - never with production audio. wolf (snobby?)

[Jeff Wexler]

from the lousy crosstalk specs alone I would not even use this in a home theater install - never with production audio. wolf (snobby?)

Wolf may be right on this and I have to admit that I have not actually tested any of these devices personally. Wolf had some rather strong words of discouragement he sent to me personally:

"i would NOT run programm audio thru this - there are NO SPECS at all I can see

I KNOW the low freq  overload on these cheap ass transformers is NOT good enough for  even radio mikes.

phase shift on cheap trafos sucks and adding 4 RF that may have leakage it will sound shitty in a large theater

if you dont spend $ 80 per transformer from Jensen or  the Swedish guys..... you are fucked from the beginning and should record on a cassette deck

Cross talk of only 105 db is a joke.  I bet Canaire is over 130

dont waste your money

wolf"

Makes me feel a little out of touch I must say.

[JimMansen]

Jeff,  In the tests you did is there any reason to confirm Wolf's fears? Are there really any sources for systems from Jensen or ?? Swedish?? manufacturers?  The expensive Axviom digital system sounded like the only "high quality" option. True? False? Will you contact Instasnakes to confirm their specs vs real use etc?  Lots of questions, I know but I hate so see this bubble burst so quickly.

Jim Mansen

[wolfvid]

Jensen makes no transformers for Cat5. I am not sure they would as the Cat5 specs are not very tight, like audio cable. Jensen even make special transformers for specific Belden cables of over 1000 Ft length. Cat5 is great and convenient for lower quality distribution of analog signals (it was developed for well specified digital apps - the bandwidth is limited and speced to  a few Gbytes, HDSDI video will not pass - it has trouble with good coax at more than 150 feet) Video assist back and forth and possibly Comtek like stuff is perfect for it. Yes and its fine for digital signals as designed in by Aviom ( SP.). I bet there are others like them cheaper , less channels... etc GOOGLE it, or ask Makee or Behringer.  wolf