iPhone/iPad TC Slate apps

[Yatess]

 I'm experimenting with Timecode apps for my iPhone. To test the accuracy of the iPhone display I'm photographing my 744t display and my iPhone together at 1/500.  I'm not happy with the results. Differences in frame rate is fluctuating between 5-6 frames, not just drifting in one direction.

Here's my setup: iPhone adapter is 

http://store.vericorder.com/products/XLR-Adapter-Cable.html    I tried it with a  Shure A15LA line input adapter between my 744t and adapter cable, and directly. I also tried wireless with a Sennheiser G3 kit with similar results. Using the G3 gave me the ability to adjust levels going to the iPhone.

I downloaded this app:

http://ambient.de/produkte/ambient-recording/clockit-timecode.html   This app also shows TC waveform.

I first tried this (paid $$ for):   http://www.movie-slate.com/ and was  also unhappy with accuracy, which prompted me to try the Ambient app. 

  I also noticed that I need a different level at which point the app starts reading the TC on the two apps. On the movie slate app I need to be several dB above the 85% level that they use to test the input. At lower levels the Ambient app will read the TC when the Movie Slate will not.

   Is anyone successfully using the iPhone or iPad for slating?

Regards,

Scott

  

[ccsnd]

You cannot successfully use an iphone or ipad for using timecode. The clock is not nearly accurate enouogh

[Yatess]

I wouldn't expect the Apple devices to free run accurately. I did expect them to read the TC accurately though when hardwired or connected wirelessly to my 744t.

[Boomboom]

Yep; better slave these devices to a TC box ( be it hardwired or wirelessly).

That's my understanding of it so far.

Waiting to see what Ambient will bring up wiyh their ACN system but I hear the range of their wireless system isn't so great so far and all this open source system might take a while to develop and expand with different brands of hardware.

Bottom line so far: I'll be going with SB-3s or SB-Ts for a while and if I feel like getting buzzed ( and generous since prods won't be paying for that I'm sure), I might eventually add wifi TC via TCBuddy for some sets.

[Aronprigg]

I have used the movies slate app generating code and hardwiring it to the 552, it synced up just fine with 5d footage. I would think since it is generating the code, it would sync. But it isn't stable enough to hold sync after jamming to an external source. And you don't need the special attenuated cable.

[ccsnd]

how did you get the timecode onto the 5d?

[Aronprigg]

Just shooting the slate, line up tc with the audio file. There is no way to get tc into the cam other than on an audio track.

[Marc Wielage]

My biggest issues with using the iPhone or iPad as a TC slate are:

1) breakability. A Denecke slate (or Ambient slate) will generally survive if you drop it flat onto concrete from 3 feet. A naked iPad or iPhone will generally not survive.

2) reliability. A real timecode slate should stay accurate for a good solid 6-8 hours, and the batteries should run for days. Plus, it's self-contained, without any wires sticking out or boxes velcroed on to the back of it.

3) brightness. iPads and iPhones are very hard to see in direct sunlight. Not enough Nits. Even if they could jack the brightness intensity up, I think that would suck battery life down considerably (#2 above).

I'm waiting for a screen, a modification, and improvements that could change my mind, but so far, it hasn't happened. To me, a timecode slate is on a long list of things on which you just can't cheap out and expect good results. If I was on a super-portable run & gun situation, I'd have no problem running Denecke's own free app (or MovieSlate's paid app with the external TC option) into an iPhone and reading external timecode, which is perfectly reasonable for some situations.

[Tom Conen]

On their German site (http://www.ambient.d...kit-tc-app.html) Ambient mentions:

"Due to display latency of the iPad/iPhone the Clockit Timecode App is not to be used for synchronization."

I'm pretty sure that other manufactures deal with the same problem.

[RandyHall]

Based on tests I've done with MovieSlate, the screen updates in such a manner that there is ghosting on the TC display if the timing on the app isn't lockstep with the shutter on the camera. If you use other features of the app, such as a credit roll, the problem becomes even more visible, as screen updates tend to move as fast as the poor device can flicker and you seen blending between one screen and the one before and/or next.

It may be that jamming TC on a real camera and then continuously jamming the iPad app might help with some of that, but I don't have the gear to test that. Yet.

[geordi]

For the super-run-n-gun reality gigs I have been getting... They are squarely in the 5d or 7d camp, so a lockit box isn't an option. That's OK, I don't own any of those (yet) anyway. These projects also are VERY difficult to get the crew to use even a standard slate, although some of the members might be aware of how difficult this will make life on the editors.

Sound reports? Hah! They aren't even doing camera reports, and the concept of slating (vocally) seems to also be a mystery to them, or it "just takes too long to constantly be using the slate, we are on a tight schedule!" is the reply. No scene numbers either in many cases. These are the same gigs that won't even tell you when they have started or stopped the camera, and paying for kit rental? HAH! again. Flat rate days usually. At least the work is fairly easy.

I don't know why I'm even contemplating this, other than I know it won't cost me much money to implement, and it just might help out a gig and make an editor happier... But my thought was to use JUST the Ambient app on an Ipod Touch (Jailbroken and hacked to shut off EVERYTHING that might otherwise be running in the background)... With a hardwire connection to the generator in the 702T, and velcroed to the outside of my bag. The camera then only needs to point at the bag and view the TC running... Then they are back to shooting.

On these gigs, I have YET to even see anything approximating a tripod, except on the long form talk-to-the-camera sit down interviews. Rotating their body to aim at me hopefully shouldn't harsh their vibe too much... But then again, using a dumb slate is too much effort for them...

They don't seem to care about the editor's time, so why even bother?

[RandyHall]

They don't seem to care about the editor's time, so why even bother?

Exactly. If I care about the editor (as in, the person is a friend), I might fight for having the crew use a slate. But if they're going to play amateur hour with sync sound, you just do your best and shrug your shoulders at them.

I worked a spec TV job where I was hardwired into the camera for single source, and then later they had me rolling sound separately because they had moved to a DSLR (this was on a sailboat out on SF Bay). I looked at them and asked how they wanted to slate it and the talent (who is also the producer) said, "no time, we gotta move." I just shrugged my shoulders and gave them the audio at the end of the day. Just glad I'm not editing it.

[Marc Wielage]

It's actually not that hard to sync it, provided the camera has about the same number of sound files as the sound recorder. Without claps and identical timecode, all they can do is watch lip-sync (which I have done on fast-moving undercover docos in the past), and that's nerve-wracking. It's particularly tough if the camera operator stops and restarts.

On a big project with maybe 3-4 hours of footage, it might take a day to sync everything up, so it's not impossible to do. I'm reminded of Martin Scorsese and Thelma Schoonmacher, who edited the 1970 movie Woodstock together without slates and without timecode. But that took months and months of work to get that all done -- old school, 16mm workprint and mag-style.

[RandyHall]

Being organized, as always, is key. Lip-sync'ing to picture sounds like a little slice of heaven.

[Marc Wielage]

Also like weeks in hell, when the footage is misslated, not slated at all, or just completely disorganized. I once worked on a John Fogerty concert special for Showtime in the 1980s where most of it I had to lip-sync completely by eye, and all the camera rolls were mislabeled. And it was an 8-camera shoot. Very, very, very complicated sorting all that out. I figure the camera crew's and lab's combined incompetence cost the client about 4 solid days of wasted time in post.

[RandyHall]

cost the client about 4 solid days of wasted time in post.

Only four days? I would think it would've been a couple weeks. Of course once it's in post, the camera crews have slithered off to go ruin someone else's shoot…

[geordi]

For your sake Marc, I hope you don't get stuck with any of these type of gigs...

I might be running a 15 or 20 minute take, they might swap discs in the camera twice (or start-and-stop it several times without ever telling me... The ONLY thing I have hope for is that they have some form of time-of-day filestamping similar to mine so at least the editor can attempt estimating which file goes with which camera file... But otherwise, he is gonna have to listen and watch every second.

Randy has it right: I present my option / suggestion of using the slate and please notify me when the camera is stopped... And when I get the "we just don't have the time" reply, shrug and hand in the files at the end of the day.

Maybe they are using the on-camera mic and attempting a manual by-ear version of Pluraleyes? Even that, when the files are wildly out of sync by number or start times... You still have to listen to damn near everything.

[Marc Wielage]

Only four days? I would think it would've been a couple weeks. Of course once it's in post, the camera crews have slithered off to go ruin someone else's shoot…

We're fast and good, and you learn to read lips in post. We actually created a "road map" of every stage position, lighting change, and camera angle to figure out where we were, and checked off the footage as we went. Very, very complicated project. If the camera crew had shot the slates, it would've been infinitely faster. But -- as my boss at the time used to remind me -- the client pays us by the hour.

I've related the story before here of how at least a third of the recent concert doco Shine a Light was also completely synced-up by eye, much of it by me. So it can be done -- it's just harder that way.

This experience has made me a little more firm when I deal with camera crews on the other side, making sure they get the slates right and re-jam when necessary. Two minutes of extra work on the set can avoid wasting an hour's work in post.

[RandyHall]

Still sounds like an awful exercise. I suppose your hourly rate makes doing it worthwhile.

[stevegrider]

To forego slating in the field is a "pay now or pay later" situation. I have a Betso timecode display on the front of my run and gun rig. Hardwired to my Deva, it is an accurate, inexpensive(relatively) and elegant solution. It is pretty unreasonable for a DP to say that he doesn't have time to pan off the talent six whole feet to shoot me at the end of my boompole. Three seconds on set could equal 30 minutes in post, and a professional should recognize that.

[studiomprd]

" so why even bother? "

that is a rhetorical question, right ?

" just shrugged my shoulders and gave them the audio at the end of the day... "

and collected the check!

They haven't got a plan, and they are sticking to it.

[Marc Wielage]

To forego slating in the field is a "pay now or pay later" situation. I have a Betso timecode display on the front of my run and gun rig. Hardwired to my Deva, it is an accurate, inexpensive(relatively) and elegant solution.

The post people of the world humbly thank you! It does make a difference, especially if you're syncing up 150+ takes a day.

[RandyHall]

As a largely academic exercise, I decided to free run the MovieSlate app running on a 1st gen iPad against a reasonably accurate clock.

So, I started at 9:02 PDT by jamming my GR-1 from the iPad MovieSlate app (Headphone jack to GR-1 input). Watching it over the course of the first interval, the iPad wanders steadily up to just shy of one frame ahead, then the timecode seems to flutter on the input of the GR-1, starting around +0.5 and becoming steadily more "flickery", such that as it approaches +0.9, you see it flicker -0.1, then suddenly the timecode is back to even.

So, by 15 minutes, the iPad was roughly 0.4 frames ahead of the Denecke.

By 30 minutes, the iPad had jumped to 7.4 frames ahead of the Denecke. The jump seemed to happen very suddenly, it went from being less than a frame ahead to seven frames ahead.

At that point, I think I had seen enough. The fact that it jumped so suddenly and by so many frames makes it unusable without doing the whole TC Buddy wifi jam. But I'm still not sure the $1100 for a TC Buddy is worth keeping an iPad slate app in sync. That money is probably better spent just buying a purpose-built TC slate and use the iPad app as a log.

[Jeff Babb]

Just a thought... Is the iPad getting its time updated from the internet or a cell tower?

[RandyHall]

Just a thought... Is the iPad getting its time updated from the internet or a cell tower?

In this case, Internet. However, the MovieSlate app rolls 23.976 timecode with a warning that it will drift from clock time.

Fun fact/bug: when the clock on the iPad rolls over at midnight, it rejams the timecode on the MovieSlate app! Stealthy!

Anyhow, I left the app running overnight. Woke up and it was 1 second and 7 frames faster than the GR1. I'm wondering what the drift would be in colder weather...