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Adjusting to Multi-track; Pre Fade vs Post Fade / Monitoring


Mike Wally

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Hey guys,

I switched from using a SD302 w/ a Zoom H4N to a Zaxcom Nomad. It's been quite a jump, and I love all the things it can do. On a philosophical level, I think I'm still a bit confused about multi-track recording. Hopefully you guys can help and offer some insight.

When using the 302, when I turned the knob, it controlled how much or little volume the recorder would record. I would monitor from my source, since that's what I was ultimately recording. If I needed more bump, I could turn a gain knob and open it up.

I assume that is post-fader recording/monitoring.

By default set up, the Nomad uses post fade, i think. This makes it so that when I'm mixing, moving the fader knobs doesn't actually really effect anything, so i'm generally just mixing using my gain knob.

I have it set up to record isolated tracks for the first 5 channels, but channel 6 is a mono mix of what ever combination i'm using.

I guess I'm just confused with how monitoring on my Nomad is different from recording to my Zoom.

I really hope i'm making sense, and I know it seems simple, but I'm having some problems grasping the whole pre-post fade thing.

Thank you,

-w

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Hey Mike, your questions make sense. I hope I don't further confuse you with my attempt to answer your questions...

Based on your described setup, you'll need to go through and change some settings within the nomad.

By default set up, the Nomad uses post fade, i think. This makes it so that when I'm mixing, moving the fader knobs doesn't actually really effect anything, so i'm generally just mixing using my gain knob.

If you have it routed properly as post fader, your faders SHOULD indeed do something. You definitely don't want to mix with your gain (as this will effect both your mix as well as your iso's, among other reasons)

You may want to check your routing. Go into the Bus Routing Page and select "Card Mix 5-8" For the mix track on Card 6, select each input 1 through 5 with an X straight across the row for Card 6. This X means Post Fader, so any fader moves you make will be reflected in the recorded track.

To setup your 5 iso tracks, Go into "Card Mix 1-4" and Send input 1 to Card track 1, input 2 to card 2, 3 to 3, and 4 to 4 (send 5 to 5 in the "Card Mix 5-8" page). Here's the important part, make sure those are selected with a "P" (not an X). This will make your iso's PRE fader (meaning no matter what you do with the fader, if you miss a line, do a bad fade, mix too hot etc... your isos will always be clean and unaltered).

I think your main question was about monitoring. To monitor what you are used to hearing with your 302, you'll need to create a headphone preset. Hit the Headphone knob and the Menu knob at the same time. In this matrix, put an X in CRD 6 for the Left and X in CRD 6 for the right. When you select this preset you'll be hearing your mono post fader mix track (essentially the same as how you used to monitor the return of the zoom, except it is mono, and not "stereo"/2-track).

You can also setup other headphone presets to listen to certain outputs or return channels. You can also custom name them in the ENG Setup menu (under "monitor names") I have three presets setup, OUT1-2, RET1-2, and CrdMix. You can setup up to 12 of these and you can also use the PFL feature to "Pre Fader Listen" to each input before it hits the fader.

I hope this helps clear some stuff up.

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Also, once you have wrapped your mind solidly around the concepts of routing inside the Nomad, you may want to consider making your mix track on Card Track 1 (instead of 6), and your ISOs on tracks 2-6. Post usually likes the mix track to be the first track and isos to follow.

That is exactly what I needed to hear. I now completely understand everything you just said, and my world has just changed. Thank you Matt.

I will indeed switch it to Track 1. So the mix is what they get, then they have the iso's for backup.

When I said it didn't do anything, I meant that when I adjusted the fader, it SOUNDED like nothing changed, unless I used the Auto Trim on the gain with the menu knob. Maybe I was confused because I was listening to Post fade when in my head I want to listen to pre-fade?

I now have it set to:

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kboE97q7b4PdJI.jpg

So, when I make adjustments with the faders, i'm controlling what the mix track is receiving. What controls the iso's then? I think that's where I get confused.

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I would monitor mix only. Set your gain properly for your ISO recording, then mix with faders and ears.

You can periodically check your ISOs between takes, to be sure they still sound ok, and watch the levels while you're shooting to be sure gain is set properly.

I will also watch ISO levels when the actors have just been wired, to see the range of levels during natural conversation. It's not always the same as a performance, but a solid starting point, and more telling than a "check one-two" at the sound cart.

Robert

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I would monitor mix only. Set your gain properly for your ISO recording, then mix with faders and ears.

+1

Also, I noticed in the pics of your routing that for your 1st card track (Mix) is not getting input 5 or 6. Make sure you put an X in those boxes as well. All the other routing looks good.

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All good advice. I would also advise setting up the input trims so they're a little lower than the actual faders. This will give you a little bit more headroom in the event of unexpected peaks.

Typically, I run with a limiter on the Mix track (on whatever I'm doing), and no limiter on everything else, but it depends on the circumstances. I would do some test mixes and check them out on an editing program and see where your levels are. My experience is that clients generally complain more if the tracks are too low than they do if they're a little high (but not clipping). Keeping them consistent boils down to experience and knowing your headphone level, and that's a long road.

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My advice to you (and I hope this doesn't turn into a big ta-da...) get some more experience working with a sound mixer with experience. These are all fairly basic questions that can (and will) be quickly answered with a little bit of experience and practice. Just buying gear and going out and doing the job is the slow, painful track to success.

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I would like to point out that if you want to take advantage of never-clip, you will prbably need to have a limiter engaged on each track, (either an input limiter or a disk limiter) This will allow anything that is clipping to be scaled down to a safe level before it makes it to the real world (a recorded track or an output) which cannot handle clipping-style signals.

Audio entering a never-clip input is allowed to be much higher than clipping all throughout the machine, but once it goes to an output or a recorded track, it HAS to clip if it has not been attenuated by either a fader or a limiter.

-howy

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My advice to you (and I hope this doesn't turn into a big ta-da...) get some more experience working with a sound mixer with experience. These are all fairly basic questions that can (and will) be quickly answered with a little bit of experience and practice. Just buying gear and going out and doing the job is the slow, painful track to success.

No, ta-da's, I appreciate the advice :). However since you don't know me other than this forum;

I know these are simple questions, but the responses I've gotten have all helped explain the new equipment much better to me. I also spoke with a few other friends who also got the Nomad and feel much more as one with the unit now :)

As far as mixing and doing sound, I spent my first year mixing features, ENG, shorts, docs, using a zoom and a 302, so I didn't just 'buy" gear and declare myself a mixer. One of the features I mixed has won audience awards, and I've worked on a lot of projects from big to small.

I have boomed and work with a lot of amazing and highly experienced mixers, my mentor and the most influential mixer I've worked with uses a FR-2/Wendt X3, and the other a 744. I've worked with the 744 as well all through 4 years of film school (where I started mixing).

I am of course always pleased to work for other mixers as a boom, and enjoy constantly learning and growing with the job :).

I would like to point out that if you want to take advantage of never-clip, you will prbably need to have a limiter engaged on each track, (either an input limiter or a disk limiter) This will allow anything that is clipping to be scaled down to a safe level before it makes it to the real world (a recorded track or an output) which cannot handle clipping-style signals.

Audio entering a never-clip input is allowed to be much higher than clipping all throughout the machine, but once it goes to an output or a recorded track, it HAS to clip if it has not been attenuated by either a fader or a limiter.

-howy

Good to know, will experiment with the limiters.

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Good point about NeverClip. This is such a new feature, it's a valid question as to how best to use it in a real world situation. To me, though, the wireless mikes are going to overload before the recorder input stage will. Setting up those gains in a "screaming" situation is always fraught with peril.

I'm reminded of what Stuart Wilson did on one scene in War Horse: use one wireless mike set very high, to capture a "whispering" moment, and then a second wireless mike set very low, to capture a "screaming" scene that followed. I thought that was a very clever solution for a scene that would otherwise be impossible to do, since it was a multiple-camera shot that precluded the use of a boom mike.

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All good advice. I would also advise setting up the input trims so they're a little lower than the actual faders. This will give you a little bit more headroom in the event of unexpected peaks.

Typically, I run with a limiter on the Mix track (on whatever I'm doing), and no limiter on everything else, but it depends on the circumstances. I would do some test mixes and check them out on an editing program and see where your levels are. My experience is that clients generally complain more if the tracks are too low than they do if they're a little high (but not clipping). Keeping them consistent boils down to experience and knowing your headphone level, and that's a long road.

Recently I was informed that some of my tracks that are recorded to camera are too low. This came from a QC report of a final mix of the show. I've been having discussions about this with the editor who provides stems for the final post pass. Early on when we started working on this show he had told me the tracks were coming into his system a little low but they were coming in digitally and he couldn't change the level as they come in. He said don't worry about it. Now two years later its becoming a concern again, only this time from the post supervisor/editor and I'm trying to figure out what I should change on my end if anything. Its a DIY Network show with lots of construction and home owners that have never been on camera before. ie: The sound can be dynamically challenging sometimes.

From my understanding the post process goes something like this. The on camera sound is ingested, the editor does his thing according to the script and then before he sends off the stems the audio is put thru a compressor and then normalized. The settings have been determined by the post sup and the idea is to get the levels close before shipping off the stems. In other words a one size fits all filter instead of a proper mix. I've seen the shows on the air and I cringe at the lack of attention the audio gets sometimes. No eq used to correct slightly muffled sound or not boosting soft spoken homeowners where necessary. Stuff like that. The editor told me he doesn't know much about eq so he doesn't do it. Ok, so what's the point of doing stems if problem areas aren't going to be addressed in the final mix? The editor also told me that they don't like to have to do much with the stems so he has to get it pretty much done before they get it.

I told him we need to check my tone coming into his system to see if indeed my -20 level reads the same on his system. I also told him I'd try to get the levels up some if I can. I have another round of shows coming up and I want to see if there's anything I missed in my thinking. I'm using a Nomad and I'm sending audio to the A camera via a Lector D-4. I'm recording isos but he has yet to use any of them. If I go too hot into the D-4 I can get into a clipping situation in the transmitter, and I'm already maxed out for output on the tx and the rx. So how to boost the level to camera safely? I don't use the input limiters, but I use the output and card limiters with default settings. I'm not one to be conservative with my levels but with the dynamics of the show its often impossible to get a strong level on some things. I'm thinking this is a post problem (too cheap to do proper sweetening) and not a field audio problem but I'm trying to see if I can improve it some on my end. I've been doing this a long time but am always learning and am looking for some fresh ideas.

Best,

Bernie

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Hi Bernnie, are you using a digital output into the D4? If so, you should be assured that you would never clip the input of the D4 if your not clipping in the Nomad. Perhaps using the method that Howy mentions of placing a limiter in addition to aggressive reliance on never-clip as a crutch can help you keep that Dx up to high enough levels to accommodate the post processes lack of resources, whether than be financial, temporal, or experience.

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Hi Bernnie, are you using a digital output into the D4? If so, you should be assured that you would never clip the input of the D4 if your not clipping in the Nomad. Perhaps using the method that Howy mentions of placing a limiter in addition to aggressive reliance on never-clip as a crutch can help you keep that Dx up to high enough levels to accommodate the post processes lack of resources, whether than be financial, temporal, or experience.

Hi Tom,

I'm not using the digital out although I bought the parts so should work on getting it wired up. I am using the limiter on the output of the Nomad which is currently feeding the D-4. Maybe I need to try some different settings on the limiter to squeak out a few more db of level.

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Bernie

If you are using the output limiters did you try adding some makeup gain? You can add up to 12dB of gain to the output.

I had been running it with 3db of makeup gain. The last time we shot I upped it to 4. The camera person said the audio was getting crunchy on peaks so I backed it back down. I have plenty of headroom on the camera, it gets dicey when I send too much to the D-4.

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Did you try to send a signal from another mixer into the D4? Because i'm not sure if the issue is with nomad - sounds like a D4 input issue. Perhaps Larry F can shed some light on this.

You could be right. I'm using the same gain structure I was with my 442 and perhaps I need to re think that with the Nomad. Although I've not had any other complaints of low levels since I got the Nomad and I've even had some operators tell me to back off a bit. I honestly think the issue really lies in their post process but am trying to wring out a few more db of level just to see if I can help on my end. Might not be worth it if I'm crunching the input of my camera hop. I'm already maxed out on the output of the D-4 into the camera.

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Bernie, if you think you are clipping the d4 input, you could try setting your gains using full scale tone, which is easy to do with the nomad. that would give you the confidence that hitting 0dbfs won't clip anywhere along the chain.

If post wants you to help them out by squeezing a few more db out of your tracks, you could try setting up your input compressors with a low ratio, and low threshold to add compression to all the louder content, then use the output/card compressors with a high ratio to prevent clipping.

I would warn post that doing this gives them less control over the dynamics, and monitoring / adjusting this compression in the field is impracticle, and will be permanent. aka not recommended, but possible.

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Bernie, if you think you are clipping the d4 input, you could try setting your gains using full scale tone, which is easy to do with the nomad. that would give you the confidence that hitting 0dbfs won't clip anywhere along the chain.

If post wants you to help them out by squeezing a few more db out of your tracks, you could try setting up your input compressors with a low ratio, and low threshold to add compression to all the louder content, then use the output/card compressors with a high ratio to prevent clipping.

I would warn post that doing this gives them less control over the dynamics, and monitoring / adjusting this compression in the field is impracticle, and will be permanent. aka not recommended, but possible.

@ Jack, we do two shoots concurrently and both cameras are Panasonics. Not sure of the models but both are full size cameras. One is a Varicam and the other is a cheaper one. Its the cheaper one that is hearing distortion at times. Part of it is the headphone amp I'm sure because I know it doesn't have much headroom. For line up the pots are up higher on the cheaper cam.

@wanderingear, how do you do full scale tone on the Nomad? I like that idea, but off the top can't think of how to do that.

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we do two shoots concurrently and both cameras are Panasonics. Not sure of the models but both are full size cameras. One is a Varicam and the other is a cheaper one. Its the cheaper one that is hearing distortion at times. Part of it is the headphone amp I'm sure because I know it doesn't have much headroom. For line up the pots are up higher on the cheaper cam.

So is the D-4 the issue? Perhaps it is just in the headphone of the camera. Is the audio clean on the camera? You should try to take that D-4 RX and with the same setting hook it up to something other that that camera and see if it still distorts? And listen to the playback of the media from that camera but not thru the camera it self.

how do you do full scale tone on the Nomad? I like that idea, but off the top can't think of how to do that.

In the ENG menu there is an adjustment for tone level

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So is the D-4 the issue? Perhaps it is just in the headphone of the camera. Is the audio clean on the camera? You should try to take that D-4 RX and with the same setting hook it up to something other that that camera and see if it still distorts? And listen to the playback of the media from that camera but not thru the camera it self.

In the ENG menu there is an adjustment for tone level

I've had previous experience with clipping the input of the D-4, but I thought I had it solved with my gain staging since. The last time the camera op heard distortion we did a playback and it wasn't there on playback so yes it could have been the headphones in that instance. It is possible to overdrive the input of the D-4 so that's why I was leary of upping the make up gain on the output limiter. I can monitor off of the D-4 tx so maybe I'll give that a try to make sure I'm not clipping it there.

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