lav rustling noise

[Tom Morrow]

What exactly is it that makes a lavalier mic have resistance to clothing rustle when hidden under a shirt? The tram tr50 is reputed to have low rustle, but that is surprising to me given that larger membranes usually cause more handling noise, at least in studio mics.

I wonder if it's simple weight. I'm wondering if somehow adding weight to my Rode Lavaliers would reduce clothing rustle when suspended with tape between an actor's pecs. I'm thinking of experimenting with just putting some blue-tak around it to add weight and possibly dampen vibrations.

[soundslikejustin]

Physical contact, or lack of it. Hence the practice of using blu-tak, moleskin, vampire clips etc etc etc to get the mic OFF the surface of the cloth.

[nika paniashvili]

many factors like placement, physical separation, type of cloth, how well the mic and its cable are fixed determine the result. I don't think size matters in this case since I always got better results with cos-11 than with much smaller and lighter countryman mic's. maybe it's just me though...

[mikewest]

Tram or Sonotrim is the easiest to apply versus clothing noise,

but when you have noisy clothing generating noise a B6 or similar

placed on the edge of the clothing or in a tie or what may work better.

I've worked with radio mikes since 1964 and I'm still learning!

mike

[Marc Wielage]

What exactly is it that makes a lavalier mic have resistance to clothing rustle when hidden under a shirt? The tram tr50 is reputed to have low rustle, but that is surprising to me given that larger membranes usually cause more handling noise, at least in studio mics.

I don't think the size of the membrane has that much to do with it. You figure there's at least four things that can potentially cause lav noise:

1) movement of cloth against the microphone

2) movement of the microphone against skin

3) movement of cloth against cloth (like a silk coat and silk shirt)

4) movement of skin against cloth (or chest hair against cloth) getting picked up by the microphone.

I've especially had the latter with tight collars and beard stubble. The only partial cure there was for the makeup artist to rub some lotion and/or talc around the neck, which got rid of more than half the problem. But anything you can hear 2 feet from the actor, obviously the mike can hear.

One solution is to put the lav in an adhesive "sandwich" affixed to both the shirt and the skin. That can work until the skin gets too sweaty. Another is to try solutions like the Rycote Undercovers, which is essentially a piece of die-cut double-stick tape onto which you stick the mike, then make a sandwich out of it only with a felt pad on the other side. That can work for several hours, depending on the fabric involved. And of course, different lavs require different techniques; what works with a Tram might not work with a Countryman, might not work with a Sony, might work with a Rode, may or may not work with a Sanken.

There are pros and cons with Trams, and some people hate the vampire clips and some people love them. I think when it comes to lavs, anything can work but you have to be willing to experiment. I think the toughest are fight scenes or running scenes, or situations where the actors are being hit by strong winds, or (worse) water. Trying to hold lavs in position when the actors are being doused is not easy. I think everybody prefers the sound of boom mikes in controllable locations -- the standard line I like to tell directors is, "it's the difference between a $2000 mike and a $200 mike" -- but sometimes, you're struggling more to eliminate the sounds of the environment than you are to capture the dialogue. It's a tough balance.

There have been many, many past discussions about lav placement and treatments on the forum. I believe David Waelder posted a long list of references which gather many of them in one place. You could literally write a book on this subject.

[chris_bollard]

Placement is critical. Moved a mic bout inch and half lower yesterday - barrel chested male. Lower, further from the voice and more likely to be bumped, but less noise from the hairy barrel chest.

It's a rule of mine to jump in and try something different (quickly and with good humor) if it's not right. Better to get it sounding as good as it can than listen through the headphones wishing you had fixed it.

Concealing a lav well is not an exact science but the more you do it the better at it you get.

[Matt]

Hey Marc,

Just an FYI. I've found that first applying a small square of Transpore to clothing, THEN sticking the Rycote stickie to that improves the length of time the stickie will stick immensely. The Transpore adhere's much better than the anemic Rycote stickie glue and doesn't add any weight per se.

Just a note.

-Matt

[OmahaAudio]

I've worked with radio mikes since 1964 and I'm still learning!

It must have been hell trying to hide one of these

under some woman's blouse...

[Marc Wielage]

Just an FYI. I've found that first applying a small square of Transpore to clothing, THEN sticking the Rycote stickie to that improves the length of time the stickie will stick immensely. The Transpore adhere's much better than the anemic Rycote stickie glue and doesn't add any weight per se.

Hey, thanks for the tip, Matt! We'll try that this coming weekend. The temps were hitting 95 degrees on our stage, and we had seven wilted actress sweating from every pore. (Luckily, the scene called for sweat and a broken air conditioner.) Adhesive + sweat & heat = sound problems. I'll definitely go for the Transpore solution.

[bernie ozol]

Trams are up a few dB at 9k I think.....

Check me on that folks....

So

You might try a flatter mic

A DPA 4061 perhaps I think is close to flat.

Try knotting the cable 5 inches or so from mic head. Def will reduce some low vibrations.

Best....Bernie

[aristotle_kumpis]

These are all great solutions. I think the most important thing to do when hiding a mic is to quickly decide which solution will work. We don't have that much time (usually) to sit there with the talent and try different things. So you really have to decide which method will work at that moment.

[mikewest]

Good try Jim,

In the 60's the options were and AKG D109 or an RCA BK77

Both about the size of a C cell battery and on a lanyard so pretty useless

for drama but ok for current affairs but studio booms were king.

Even in the early 70's the ubiquitous Sony ECM50 was about the size of

half an AA cell so not the easiest to hide.

Meanwhile the TRAM had been introduced I guess in the late 60's and

many of us marvelled at the early Richard Attenborough documentaries

with perfectly clear dialogue on wide mid shots in foreign locations.

Gee what a wealth of toys we have now-days!

mike

[chris_bollard]

Hi Ari

Yes we are under time pressure on most projects but if it is NOT right it is better to call a brief halt to fix things than push on with noisy lav than can be improved on.

[Jason Kubota]

I use transpore tape (its breathable and has strong 3m adhesive) and undercovers on cos11s and those little black rubber duckies. Putting a small service loop and securing it with gaffers tape works as well.

Hey Marc,

Just an FYI. I've found that first applying a small square of Transpore to clothing, THEN sticking the Rycote stickie to that improves the length of time the stickie will stick immensely. The Transpore adhere's much better than the anemic Rycote stickie glue and doesn't add any weight per se.

Just a note.

-Matt

[Tom Morrow]

For actors wearing multiple shirts (cold outoor shoot), I have had decent success using 3m wound dressing tape to attach the lav to the inside of the outer shirt, then a double sided loop of tape to secure that to the inner shirt. Rather than using loops, it would be better to find a double sided tape that was skin-safe and clothing-safe... anyone found one?

I suppose the Rycote Undercovers have double sided tape, but I was hoping for something larger to stick the clothing together over a larger area to look more natural and hold better.

[Zack]

For actors wearing multiple shirts (cold outoor shoot), I have had decent success using 3m wound dressing tape to attach the lav to the inside of the outer shirt, then a double sided loop of tape to secure that to the inner shirt. Rather than using loops, it would be better to find a double sided tape that was skin-safe and clothing-safe... anyone found one?

I suppose the Rycote Undercovers have double sided tape, but I was hoping for something larger to stick the clothing together over a larger area to look more natural and hold better.

Topstick, but I would tape to the inside of the shirt closest to his body to prevent the visual side effects of what can happen to the outer shirt....(depending on all variables).

[bmjord]

it would be better to find a double sided tape that was skin-safe and clothing-safe... anyone found one

I have used both stick it dots and super stick it dots both on the skin and on clothing. They are also the perfect size to be used on the Rycote stickies.

http://www.filmtools...ck-it-dots.html

[Wandering Ear]

Hey, thanks for the tip, Matt! We'll try that this coming weekend. The temps were hitting 95 degrees on our stage, and we had seven wilted actress sweating from every pore. (Luckily, the scene called for sweat and a broken air conditioner.) Adhesive + sweat & heat = sound problems. I'll definitely go for the Transpore solution.

I also use a piece of topstick ontop of the rycote dots. Especially when re using an over cover between wardrobe changes. Works great and sticks a lot better.