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Steadicam Walk & Talk Near a Fountain... Advice?


joshneal

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  I'm currently starting week three on my first million dollar feature, and just scouted City Hall Park in Manhattan yesterday for a few scenes we're set to shoot next week.  All of the scenes will be Steadicam walk & talks involving 2 actors (1 male, 1 female) and at points during the scenes they will walk near and possibly stand next to the giant fountain in the parks center.  They will be covered from different angles and sizes - so anything is fair game as far as framing.

  I'm trying to give this production something other than a guide track for ADR.  The problems are that they will be walking toward and away from the fountain, and some dialogue will take place directly near the fountain.  BTW the fountain is quite large and has about four arcs of shooting water.  What I would like to have is a consistent ambient sound for cutting between coverage at each point during the walk.

  Im using a Sanken CS-3e and Lectro 401s w/ Sanken COS-11 lavs.  Im going to make sure that the wardrobe is accommodating for the lavs, and take my time to get a perfectly clean lav track (rolling on two channels - fostex fr2).  Is there a more directional shotgun mic with better off axis cancelation out there? The Sennheiser 816 perhaps?  Shadows permitting, Im probably going to have the boom mic 90 degrees to the ground consistently throughout.  Or am I wasting my time with the boom, and should just put the wires on separate tracks?  I want to do whatever is possible to get the strongest signal and least noise.

  If anyone has ever shot near a fountain or anything like this, throw some advice my way.  Thanks.

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the sanken cs-3e is a very directional mic.

"Is there a more directional shotgun mic with better off axis cancelation out there?" 

not that i've heard, but i don't have much experience with a senn 816.

you could always roll a wild track of just the fountain (after filming the scene) and try to place your mic in some different relative positions to get different tones of the fountain.  get 30 seconds from where the boom was relative to the actors, then get 30 seconds with the mic aimed straight toward the fountain.  it wouldn't hurt to also get some more audio from up closer and farther away.

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try the MKH 70, think 816- but lighter "cleaner" or "bright" sound with built in

filtering switches to help roll off the water fountain when not seeing it in your shot.  also, get the full rycote setup for it (zep, windjammer)

call Gotham Sound ask for Otto.

also,

there has been some posts here on room tone.

you for sure should get that water fountain on a room tone track with the lavs, 70 and the sanken cs-3e mic from the same position you use them in the shot. (before you take of the cos-11's off the actors, get some tone)

good luck,

fsbella

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It's always worth it to try, right?  Depending on how they cut the scene you might get away with it.  I'd roll the lavs and the boom as isos if you can, get clean tracks of the fountain at various distances that match what you did during the scene, and, if they'll take the time, wild track the scene away from the fountain a bit while the actors still have their performance in mind.  This last is a tough sell on any production, but it doesn't hurt to ask.  My guess is that if the sound editors can make it work at all they the director will go for your tracks in the final, even if there is fountain noise in them.

Philip Perkins

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All good advice, but I feel Phillip stated it best. I would iso all 3 mics pre fader, then mix as good a dailies trk as possible post fader, probably a little open boom mic and ride the faders like a human gate. Sometimes it works well, other times, not so much, but it is worth a shot. Also if you have a figure 8 mic, like a schoeps which is useable on a pole, try keeping the diaphragm parallel to the ground and boom right overhead if possible. The side rejection of this mic is profound and I have used this arraignment w great success many times as a boomer n as a mixer. Most times actors speak up in loud enviroments and this could be all you need to pull off the scene. Good luck and let us know how it works out.

CrewC

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I worked on a shoot last week where the subjects where wondering around an Iron Casting factory & noise levels where very very high, am talking multiple high power fans, sand blasters, hydraulic cranes and not to mention the iron melting electrodes... I used Sanken's COS-11 & 400 series lectros. I turned the gain knob on the lectros quite low (say about two notches up) and had outstanding results. I mean you can still hear the very crowded background but the dialog was always on top of the ambience. 

I would definitely recommend to ISO the lavs on one track and record your CS-3e on the other. In my opinion Sanken's shotguns are far more directional than ANY other brand out there, you only need a trusty boom op that can pick the dialog track you need.

As per the fountain ambience you may want to run a second scouting at about the same time of day the soot is scheduled at, but this time bring your recorder with you and run a 20min stereo track. Later at home you should realize how the location really sounds...

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All great advice. The only suggestion I have is to abandon the Sanken lavs in favor of Trims/Trams. They are less sensitive and will give you a better dialogue to background ratio. I've used them with great succes in casinos in Vegas. Get the mic as close to the actor's mouth as wardrobe will permit, and mic the off camera dialogue if there are over-the-shoulder shots if you can. This can sometimes serve as wild tracks. If the fountain is really loud then just go for the on camera stuff as two open mics will be obviously noisier. Good luck, let us know how it turns out.

Regards

Mick

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Guest Jeff Colon

i get to shoot around smaller fountains all the time... If the "creatives" will not visually establish it as part of the environment.  I do my dammdest to turn them off and direct the water so that it does not "Splash"... if nothing else a constant whitish noise is better that beeping reversing signals.

At refineries and some other industrial locations I have used two mics switched 180 out of phase with mixed results... for a static shot it works much better but is always seemingly hit or miss due to the inconsistent nature of physical vs electrical phase relationships...

Many times in these "noisy" situations I will "double" mic...using a b6 as close as I can get it and a more natural sounding placement of the other... someone will certainly laugh... but in these situations... my "go to" mics are the Lectro 150? wedge shaped lavs that used to come with their systems... I do own 7 different type lavs.  isomax, b6, tram, sanken, psc, sony ecm77 and mk2s... the 77s, trams, and micky2s have not seen the light of day in years.

The other posts re directional boom mics etc. are spot on imho...

jeff c

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It can be surprisingly amazing what a good long shotgun such as the MKH70 or 816 can do.  I have used the Sanken CS-3 and have been very impressed with its rear rejection, but I don't have enough experience with it to know its throw well enough - and with a couple of cameras, since I have the feeling they might be shooting with two - the issue of the throw comes in to play.

Since you have a two-track recorder, I would wire the actors and boom it and see what works best in rehearsal - and if there's no rehearsal, lean towards what you've already experienced with this show.  Don't get too worried about it - there's really no other way than preparing yourself for the shot and getting ready to do what it takes.

Tim

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Perhaps rent a 744T for the day and lay down the mix on one and the lavs and the boom on the other three tracks.  Monitor the mono, and mix as best you can.  Your and your boom op should concentrate as much on the background noise as you do on the dialogue.  Cuing a directional mic in a noisy environment yields poor results, as does following the dialogue on the lavs if one person's back is to the noise.  The good thing about the isos, is the post folks will have more time to tweak and find the best mix.  An opportunity you will not likely get.

Good luck!

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Good advice all around here. The only thing I can add is that if they do CU coverage, then ask the director and DP if they can cheat the CU shot away from the fountain, and that also opens up the option of creating a sound blanket wall with C-stands. this way, post can have the cleanest possible CU dialog, and it's always easier to lay over CU dialog on a longer shot. Combine this with the room tone suggestions from above, and they should have all the options they want.

Good luck!

Tom

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You're most likely going to be going with lavs.  The only boom mic I'd consider trying here is an 816 -- I don't agree with the recommendation of the MKH-70 as it doesn't have very good LFE rejection, which is what you need in this case.  The Sanken has better LFE rejection but just not enough directionality and gain to pull people out of a fountain.

Most likely what will happen is that the blocking will dictate that one actor stands with his/her back to the fountain, which will likely kill your chances with the boom (if direct sunlight doesn't do that first).  I'd bring an 816 and listen to it, but my feeling is you're going to end up in wire-world.  Just one of those things.

If you do get lucky, you'll still have to be VERY careful with an 816 -- one miscue into the fountain and you'll be in a waterfall.

If the actors are face to face and very close together, and one actor has his or her back to the fountain, see if it all plays on that actor's lav.  The actor's body will block some of the noise, whereas the other actor facing the fountain will probably get crushed.

Another possibility, if there are tight singles that you can mic from below, is to try a dynamic mic.  It'll only work for the closest of closeups, though. 

Good luck.  There's only so much you can do in that instance.  Remember that post on a $1M movie is not likely going to have much time and/or experience, so try to find the best thing yourself and make a mix as opposed to a pile of isos (unless you're sure someone is going to know what to do with them later).

.02 nvt

 

  I'm trying to give this production something other than a guide track for ADR.  The problems are that they will be walking toward and away from the fountain, and some dialogue will take place directly near the fountain.  BTW the fountain is quite large and has about four arcs of shooting water.  What I would like to have is a consistent ambient sound for cutting between coverage at each point during the walk.

  Im using a Sanken CS-3e and Lectro 401s w/ Sanken COS-11 lavs.  Im going to make sure that the wardrobe is accommodating for the lavs, and take my time to get a perfectly clean lav track (rolling on two channels - fostex fr2).  Is there a more directional shotgun mic with better off axis cancelation out there? The Sennheiser 816 perhaps?  Shadows permitting, Im probably going to have the boom mic 90 degrees to the ground consistently throughout.  Or am I wasting my time with the boom, and should just put the wires on separate tracks?  I want to do whatever is possible to get the strongest signal and least noise.

  If anyone has ever shot near a fountain or anything like this, throw some advice my way.  Thanks.

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