Ipad and tc buddy vs. Deneke slate - & ipad field case?

[JCC]

I'm in the process of choosing between a deneke smart slate, and ipad/tc buddy system for my slating needs.

I know that as far as "build" and "pro gear" goes, deneke can't be beat, but the tc buddy has features that deneke does not, and I'm told that the tc crystal is the same. TC buddy can send wirelessly to multiple ipads on set while it sits on the camera and gets wireless tc from me, and while it also sends that tc to cam.

I'm doing more and more 5D work, so I need a solid sync system. The weak spot with the tc buddy is the ipad. Sometimes I have to run with the slate in my bag, for shooters to shoot in the field.

I don't want to buy a smart slate on top of the tc buddy stuff, though ( I already have an ipad).

Anybody have a good, bomb-proof ipad case that they've used in the field? I'd prefer something that I could attach to my bag or safely stuff in-and out of- my bag somehow.

I know I can google this, but I ask here for a response with anyone with hands-on experience.

Thanks.

John

[Jim Feeley]

Toughest iPad case I've seen in the wild is the Otterbox Defender. There could easily be better choices, though.

http://www.otterbox.com/new-ipad-cases/new-ipad-cases,default,sc.html

Looked pretty-well designed and rugged. The "Utility Latch" thing is interesting too. Not sure if interesting = useful.

But I'd suggest that if you go the iPad route that you ALWAYS bring a spare iPad in case your first unit gets dropped (even in a good case) and the glass shatters, or the thing becomes otherwise unfunctional. I've seen three different iPads hit the ground, and each of those were being handled by someone who was paying more attention than I sometimes see given to slates.

Just one wary perspective. Let us know what you end up doing...

Jim

[MatthewFreedAudio]

If you go the iPad route keep in mind the battery life. Also, in bright.sunlight the iPad can be much harder to see/read than a traditional timecode slate. The stick click can be rather weak on the iPad slate and you need to have it pretty quiet on set for it to be useful.

[Jim Feeley]

Here are a couple iPad cases that work with MovieSlate and address the quiet-clack problem (but not the other problems) Matthew mentions:

http://www.movie-sla...tick_iPad_Cases

There are also some links on that page to other iPad cases the MovieSlate gang seems to like:

[RPSharman]

I think owning a setup like this would be foolish.

iPads get broken and stolen. Slates don't. The number of times you hear a slate hit the ground only indicates to me the number of times you don't hear it. Durability is a huge issue, and production won't enjoy being billed for iPads, even if you claim you don't use it for any other purpose. And how many would you be comfortable having with you to account for breakage.

To me, the iPad app is for students and such who own an iPad and are making short films with a Zoom recorder and for them it's the best option.

A professional set will use professional equipment.

If you want to run wireless TC to camera and your recorder, then do that and camera can use their dumb slate to ID the take and hit sticks for nostalgia and redundancy.

On 5D movies, I doubt you are being paid extra for this system. On most projects, lockits have become part of the camera package. I would steer as far clear from any system like this and put the burden where it belongs. With camera.

[benr]

Wow that Mambo frame?! $500? Plus the cost of the iPad?! Just get a real slate...

[Chris Woodcock]

To me, the iPad app is for students and such who own an iPad and are making short films with a Zoom recorder and for them it's the best option.

A professional set will use professional equipment.

I strongly disagree with this, maybe the ipad stand alone is a student device. With the Timecode Buddy system the ipad with movie*slate because far more "smart" than the deneke slate with a massive amount of options, I have just purchased a mamboframe frame and will be using it on a feature soon and the edit and camera team are looking forward to using it

Regards

Chris

[Boomboom]

Again: I'll consider TCBuddy when they make a receiver unit as small as their transmitter unit.

One Master that'd send to a bunch of receivers + iPhones would make sense to me.

A transmitter sending to a bunch of Master units doesn't (and they're big on top of that !).

Unless there's something I don't get...

[Chris Woodcock]

There are announcing new thing's in September

I am happy with my tx and master box, the problem with just a receiver is the lack of internal clock if I put 2 master boxes on cameras (which I will be doing soon on a feature) if the tx goes down or out of range the internal clocks of the master take over until they receive wifi again, a cheap receiver would not do this

Regards

Chris

[Jaymz]

Again: I'll consider TCBuddy when they make a receiver unit as small as their transmitter unit.

Same.

[Philip Perkins]

The system we have (Lockit/SBT, TC slate) has proved itself to be bombproof (or AC-proof, nearly) over many years of use. The iPad has a mirror front (reflections), has to be sent data (not quickly written on), does not have changeable batteries and isn't really all that readable in bright light, esp if the camera is stopped down (compared to a TC slate). My slates have taken a tremendous beating over the years, and still work. How many times can an iPad be dropped and keep working? This is really not the application they were designed for. I don't doubt they will work ok, but I'd want something I turn over to the camera dept to be a lot more rugged than an iPad. TC Buddy looks pretty tough though, like it can take some abuse.

phil p

[Chris Woodcock]

From a durability point of view I can understand but I think the mamboframe will protect the ipad very well. If the 2ac is using movie*slate to log camera data he might be more inclined to look after it.

The beauty of TCB with an ipad slate is with the wifi sync you can have a multi cam setup and should never worry about drifting sync

Regards

Chris

[Philip Perkins]

From a durability point of view I can understand but I think the mamboframe will protect the ipad very well. If the 2ac is using movie*slate to log camera data he might be more inclined to look after it.

The beauty of TCB with an ipad slate is with the wifi sync you can have a multi cam setup and should never worry about drifting sync

Regards

Chris

I have Lockits and TC slates and I don't worry about drifting sync now! And haven't ever, really, when using that gear. DSLR type cams will do what they are going to do sync wise. All professional recorders can hold sync fine unless they are broken. Cameras generally do not hold sync w/o some ext reference (Alexa aside). If you are on a show where the workflow calls for a 2ndAC to enter data on an iPad then that's cool (a la MovieSlate), but they could get their own iPad/case for that. The issue isn't sync at all, or how the cam dept enters data, its what happens to a syncing device like a slate under real world mud/guts/blood working conditions--everyone in a hurry and maybe not being ultra careful. The ACs kind of assume the slate will take a fair amount of abuse, so they are very often not all that careful with it. If the consideration here is really cost, then I'd recommend looking for a used TC slate.

phil p

[Chris Woodcock]

I am just pointing out the benefits of TCB with an ipad slate over the the traditional timecode slate which is really a dumb slate compared to this,no more resyncing after lunch as everything is wifi jammed, camera notes and sound reports are all on the slate and can be viewed and changed from other apple devices

I look at it from cost + features point of view and the TCB + Ipad slate makes a lockit and TC slate look like an over priced antique in my eyes

Here is another case for consideration

www.iclapperboard.com/about.html

Regards Chris

[GrahamTimmer]

I'm sure it will work beautifully for you chris. It would add to much worry to my day. This Past week both of my slates hit the ground a couple of times in my view. How many when I was not around, well only the ac's know for sure. I like good old solid tried and true. It is guys like you who drive innovation and invention. Cheers to you.

[Marc Wielage]

I don't want to buy a smart slate on top of the tc buddy stuff, though ( I already have an ipad).

I will add that there's no harm in renting a TC slate if you can't afford to buy one. I shopped around and picked up two used TS-3's on eBay at a reasonable price, then had the factory upgrade them to backlit (just because I like the backlighting). Slate #1 has survived for 6 years without any serious harm, and I've seen it fall off grip carts, slide from dollies, get slapped around by indifferent ACs, and otherwise abused far more than I'd like. There's the tiniest hairline crack in the bottom panel, but not enough that you can see it from 5 feet away. I don't think an iPad would have survived one of those falls.

Don't forget that a slate can run at least a couple of days on one set of AA batteries, and it's visible in bright sunlight, interiors, and pitch-black rooms. The iPad's visiblity suffers terribly in sunlight.

One positive thing about the trusted and true (Denecke or Ambient slates): all crews know how to deal with them, they're reliable, they hold up well, and there's (generally) no surprises with them. They just work. To me, there's something very comfortable about traditional old-school stuff like this. And they still work fine with a reliable wireless TC feed if you want to go that route.

[RandyHall]

With cases like the Lifeproof iPad case coming along, the durability question may be addressed adequately. I do find the characterization of AC's being knuckle-draggers amusing, I'm sure I will form my own opinions in the months ahead.

I've been using the 1st generation iPad (which is bigger and bulkier, and by odd luck, more durable) with MovieSlate. I strap mine into a generic iPad case with a flap, and with generous application of velcro, stuck the little bugger to a polycarb "capital D dumb" slate. The real sticks give a good audio clap for the wretched sync to non TC cameras like the 5D, and the app can "sync" (with about a 1-2 frame lag) from the mic on the iPad (assuming the film set is quiet enough) or the accelerometer (i.e. the jerk from the sticks clapping) or both.

But then I'm squarely in the "DSLR quasi-pro" film sound experience right now, which many of you consider not to be professional at all. I'm using what I have as best I can, and I get good results (though I do have a rooftop film shoot war story to share another time).

I'd much rather have a TC-enabled recorder jammed to a TC buddy with a TX on the camera and the iPad app playing as something of an insert slate. Wrapped in one of those Lifeproof cases, I'd be okay putting it in the hands of a knuckle-dragger.

[taylormadeaudio]

I think owning a setup like this would be foolish.

iPads get broken and stolen. Slates don't. The number of times you hear a slate hit the ground only indicates to me the number of times you don't hear it. Durability is a huge issue, and production won't enjoy being billed for iPads, even if you claim you don't use it for any other purpose. And how many would you be comfortable having with you to account for breakage.

To me, the iPad app is for students and such who own an iPad and are making short films with a Zoom recorder and for them it's the best option.

A professional set will use professional equipment.

If you want to run wireless TC to camera and your recorder, then do that and camera can use their dumb slate to ID the take and hit sticks for nostalgia and redundancy.

On 5D movies, I doubt you are being paid extra for this system. On most projects, lockits have become part of the camera package. I would steer as far clear from any system like this and put the burden where it belongs. With camera.

+11

I can't believe anyone would ever even consider such a small factor as having to re-jam after lunch as an actual reason to go with an iPad over a purpose-built slate... seriously? Have we really become that lazy?

I would think the most time-tested, reliable, simplest method would be a no-brainer here...

Don't get me wrong -- I'm all for innovation, and I've definitely had my share of Apple-flavored CoolAid, but this just seems ridiculous to me.

Robert, you nailed this one.

~tt

[stevegrider]

An iPad has to over-achieve to be a good slate. Why not get the right tool for the job?

It may sound superficial, but bear with me for a moment....the quality of gear we bring to the set reflects on us as professionals. I once took a phone call from an out-of-town producer. Before she would seal the deal, she wanted me to talk with the show's sound supervisor. He asked me what rig I owned. When I said Zaxcom, Lectrosonics, Sanken, he cut me off mid-sentence. I heard him say "He will be fine" and handed the phone back to the producer. In another situation, a good client had just returned from an out-of-town shoot. He told me they had hired local, and the mixer showed up with what could best be described as prosumer gear. There were issues on set with connectivity, and the audio quality suffered in a challenging environment. He said he was going to breathe easier on set that day because he knew I had the right tools for the job.

[RandyHall]

the quality of gear we bring to the set reflects on us as professionals.

In general, I would agree with that statement. At the same time, I think that an iPad being used as a slate is not a deal-breaker. I would not suggest using it on a full feature-length shoot, but for commercial/corporate work where it's a skeleton crew, it's not unprofessional to walk in with this solution.

As to the Zaxcom/Lectro/Sanken question, those are more closely tied to the audio chain than using an iPad to display the timecode. And now cue the comments about how timecode display is vital to the chain...

[Chris Woodcock]

+11

I can't believe anyone would ever even consider such a small factor as having to re-jam after lunch as an actual reason to go with an iPad over a purpose-built slate... seriously? Have we really become that lazy?

I would think the most time-tested, reliable, simplest method would be a no-brainer here...

Don't get me wrong -- I'm all for innovation, and I've definitely had my share of Apple-flavored CoolAid, but this just seems ridiculous to me.

Robert, you nailed this one.

~tt

it's not about being lazy, you need to see the bigger picture. The camera boys hate people touching the camera especially later in the day, after lunch when they are setting up again I don't have to bother them as I know my tcb and slate are in sync, I can check it on the iPad it's self and change any of the settings wirelessly if I need to so I don't have to get in the camera boys way, which in turn gives me more time to do other tasks before we turn over again, it's not about being lazy its about being efficient and productive, while you spend 5 minutes resyncing 2 boxes on the camera I have done it in 5 seconds without touching the cameras.

How many of you have actually tried this method with tcb and an iPad slate? As for the right tool for the job I have the right tool for the job and then some not only does it provide sync accurate timecode but also offers a lot in terms of meta data and logging that helps in the edit process and editors have told me how much they love it.

So far the only argument people have given to me is "a traditional timecode slate with lockit boxes are tried and tested method of doing things" well so was using a horse on a farm once but it got replaced by tractors or robots in car factories people said it wouldn't replace a human work force. I am not saying that this method will ever be the normal but I am using it and getting great results and I am willing to break the mold to discover new methods to make me and the production more efficient. If you don't like this system fine but at least expirement with it before telling people it's the wrong method

Regards

Chris

[RandyHall]

If you don't like this system fine but at least expirement with it before telling people it's the wrong method

+1

[Marc Wielage]

As for the right tool for the job I have the right tool for the job and then some not only does it provide sync accurate timecode but also offers a lot in terms of meta data and logging that helps in the edit process and editors have told me how much they love it.

They won't love it if it can't be viewed in bright sunlight.

I think there are pros and cons to each method, but if you want network capability, there's no harm in hooking up a solid, reliable wireless receiver to a Denecke slate, if that's what you want. I'm only looking at durability, reliability, and visibility -- and I was a guy who had to look at these slates in post for more than 20 years. I occasionally had conversations with the ACs on certain shows, saying, "really, the only two people on the entire show who need the slates are me and the assistant editor. Not many other people care." But it was important for our jobs. Once they understood why we needed to see the slate in focus, and that they needed to start the camera before the clap, the problems stopped.

A former Miramax studio exec once told me, "we also like the slates, because if we see the number of takes go too high in dailies, we start making phone calls."

[taylormadeaudio]

it's not about being lazy, you need to see the bigger picture. The camera boys hate people touching the camera especially later in the day, after lunch when they are setting up again I don't have to bother them as I know my tcb and slate are in sync, I can check it on the iPad it's self and change any of the settings wirelessly if I need to so I don't have to get in the camera boys way, which in turn gives me more time to do other tasks before we turn over again, it's not about being lazy its about being efficient and productive, while you spend 5 minutes resyncing 2 boxes on the camera I have done it in 5 seconds without touching the cameras.

How many of you have actually tried this method with tcb and an iPad slate? As for the right tool for the job I have the right tool for the job and then some not only does it provide sync accurate timecode but also offers a lot in terms of meta data and logging that helps in the edit process and editors have told me how much they love it.

So far the only argument people have given to me is "a traditional timecode slate with lockit boxes are tried and tested method of doing things" well so was using a horse on a farm once but it got replaced by tractors or robots in car factories people said it wouldn't replace a human work force. I am not saying that this method will ever be the normal but I am using it and getting great results and I am willing to break the mold to discover new methods to make me and the production more efficient. If you don't like this system fine but at least expirement with it before telling people it's the wrong method

Regards

Chris

Chris,

I understand your point -- and there is some validity to it... that said, the day it takes my crew 5 minutes to re-sync slates and sync boxes is the day I look for new crew. In the grand scheme of things, this task is so simple and quick that I can't think of an instance when it was ever really an issue -- and I can't help but see the whole iPad slate thing as more problematic than anything, especially working in a trade where eliminating as many variables as possible is not only wise, but expected. The iPad as a slate option introduces so many unnecessary variables, I just don't see the benefits outweighing the risks here -- for all of the aforementioned reasons.

Frankly, I'm a little tired of the "don't bother the camera crew" mentality -- of course we need to get along, and maximize efficiency, but when a production's protocol includes syncing timecode across the various Sound and Camera implements, I don't see re-syncing the timecode instruments as any more of a nuisance than getting focus marks, or checking color temperature, or getting last looks on talent -- they are simply part of the job.

If it's any consolation, I do plan to look further into the iPad method -- for no other reason than it's new, and could eventually work into a viable option for some crews in certain instances... and knowledge is power... but I'm skeptical to say the least, and just don't really see it ever being implemented on any picture on which I work -- big or small.

~tt

[JCC]

OKay, thanks for all the input, everyone.

I went with the tc buddy and the ipad/iphone (for now) - here's why:

With the TC buddy wifi master (and movie slate app), I can both lock wireless jam-sync'd tc onto a camera, AND send that signal wirelessly to a good sound report app (AND use it for a slate - on my ipad/iphone - in a pinch).

So in a sense, since I already have an ipad, I'm getting a lockit box and a slate for less $$ than I'd pay deneke for both (and I can make convenient sound reports should that need arise...)

I don't use a slate that often - if I get a call to use one in combat, I'll prob rent a deneke if I don't find a reasonably priced/well-designed clapper case.

I think you are all correct about concerns for the durability of an ipad on set, but like I said, I don't use a slate that often, and I'm hopeful I'll get a reasonably priced/ durable case that works with movieslate soon.

The biggest draw for me was seeing one of my best clients whip out his ipad during some interviews and use the movie slate app to sync/slate multiple 5D's with a varicam. I really wanted to make the timecode on that slate/app match TC on my mixer's backup sound and the camera's - this'll do that.

I'll let you know what I think after I use it in the field a while.

Cheers!

John

John