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grasping the 2 track mix


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My first post, you seem like a great bunch of guys. I'm a location sound newbie but a post sound veteran. In exploring the possibilities of an equipment package (I do like the 788t and Nomad but wonder if 8 tracks are necessary -- my money might be better spent on 744 and auxiliary gear such as a sound cart), I'm still trying to wrap my head around the purpose of a 2 track mix in a film location sound recording. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a 2 track mix that a CL-8, for example, will give me (in addition to iso-track recordings from individual mics), seems to provide the following options:

1) Providing a complete, deliverable mix from the location without having to go to post.

2) I take it a reference mix is commonly delivered live to the camera for recording on the video file.

3) Providing a "cue mix" to relevant personal on the location from multiple sets of headphones. Perhaps even one-sided headsets as a mono feed.

4) Providing, at the very least, a single, monitorable cue mix on the location to the sound mixer and the boom man, to provide monitoring for all mics on the set at once, audible through headphones.

5) Permitting "easy" detection/correction of mic polarity reversals.

Let me know if I'm headed in the right direction on this issue. And if any other uses for the location 2 track mix come to mind.

thx

John

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Hi, and welcome...

equipment choices, and a lot of the rest of your options are covered in a bunch of threads already discussed, so try doing some site searching (and be sure to select "all forums" in the little drop down box between the search terms and the search icon..

I'm not sure exactly what your question is but the answer is: it depends! ???

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1) Sending off to transcription.

2)You mentioned sending audio to camera. Now with digital workflows this can enable a video editor to start cutting right away and not have to worry about syncing all the sound first. This way they only have to deal with 1 or 2 tracks of audio for each video clip. At some point the assistant video editor will add in all the iso tracks for use in post sound. Basically for a cleaner video editing sequence.

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For narrative work, the general concensus is that you would do a mono mix on track 1 and ISOs on the other tracks. Both Nomad and 788 and most recorders are capable of that. Outputs can be set for various things too.

If there truly is no post, then I believe a mono mix is required even more. You shouldn't have different things coming out of each speaker L/R.

Some folks here do some split tracks L/R if it's a camera master only, of if recording only two tracks. There are various routing choices, boom/wires, or noisy lav on its own track and everything else on the other, etc.

It does truly depend :-)

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To get specific on the first part of your question, Nomad or 788 vs 744:

I don't know your client base, I can only speak to mine. In my market, (Nashville, TN) I often use more than four tracks. Post production for jobs I do is less concerned with a mono mix, they would rather have individual tracks and mix it in post. Reality jobs often want all talent on a wire and a boom for innocent bystanders. I have had four wires, a boom and a stereo playback track on a commercial. If you're making your initial investment, go with an 8 track machine of your choice. The industry leaders are Zaxcom and Sound Devices. They are both great machines, and my best advice is to rent or demo them and see which you like working with best. These days, four tracks just aren't enough for me.

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Thanks guys for the fast feedback. So I take it my points 1 thru 5 are all valid and necessary for a post-fader mix. I didn't know that a mono mix is the standard. I'm not used to thinking that way, but in a live pressure situation, a mono mix certainly makes life simpler and detection of polarity conflicts more readily apparent for sure. In such a mix, it would make sense to turn non-essential or conflicting mic sources off in the mix.

~ John

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I'll grant you that. Dialogue is almost always gonna be panned to the center, anyway. 2 track mix going to a camera is effectively gonna read as mono.

~ John

" It does truly depend :-) "

cha-ching...

"Stereo" means there is a spatial relationship; 2 tracks are not necessarily "stereo".

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here's a n00b question: for those of you doing a mono mix on track 1, how quickly do you get used to adjusting your channel 1 fader based on what you see come from channel 2 led's (which is where channel 1 ISO would show up i assume).

I'm not sure what recorder you are refering to, but the 788 has seperate leds for the

mix tracks and for each input, and the faders are tied to input channels, not card tracks.

On the Nomad, you can link your faders to any input you want, so they are not tied to track assignments. You can also choose what you want to monitor, not just the card tracks, but inputs and outputs as well.

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My first post, you seem like a great bunch of guys. I'm a location sound newbie but a post sound veteran. In exploring the possibilities of an equipment package (I do like the 788t and Nomad but wonder if 8 tracks are necessary -- my money might be better spent on 744 and auxiliary gear such as a sound cart)...

I would also add to the good advice above that a lot depends on the type of work you plan to do. Documentary/reality vs. commercials vs. scripted films often require different equipment and different choices. I've used different 4-track, 8-track, and 10-track decks for seven or eight years now, but I'm not afraid to shut most of the channels off and just do a couple of tracks if the situation warrants it. It's nice to be able to jump up to more tracks when you need them.

In conversations with many editors, they tend to like to have just a basic mono mix, and everything else available as isos. In the heat of battle, you often run into situations where one actor is off mike, or you just forget to hit a fader on one line. Having the safety net of that track avoids having to ask for another take.

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Agreeing with Marc -- it definitely depends upon which sector of the marketplace you're mixing for and even those vary a lot.

I'd say the nearest thing to a standard is that for feature work with a proper post budget, the mix plus ISOs that others have stated seems to be most common, whereas, for many TV productions such as cable shows, etc, split mixes are quite often preferred, with boom in one channel, lavs in the other (and those assignments vary widely depending upon the circumstances).

The greatest decider is how they're planning to do post, and too many times that hasn't even been established prior to the shoot.

With commercial work, it varies widely, but in many situations, one good boom track is all you need, or if that isn't possible, one good lav track. I approach commercials based very much on the specific circumstances, post flow, and discussions with the producer(s). Of course, that also goes for any production whenever possible.

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I'm guessing you mean phase from multiple mics being used, of which a mono mix track will surely point out. Polarity is a different thing (electrical).

If a nomad or 788 are within your budget, I would suggest going for one of those. You never know what you might be called for, and it's best to be able to say "yes I can", rather than saying you can't without a rental or whatever excuse.

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Is your iso the safety net track or the mono mix?

For me, the iso is the safety net. I have a pretty standard email I send out with the Sound Log that says, "the mono mix on channel 1 will work 90% of the time, but in the event an actor is off-camera or I made a late fader move, all the isos are available to plug in the missing word or line." I only say this to people who I'm concerned may try to use all the tracks at the same time, or may not be aware that the mono mix is meant to be used.

Steve Deichen has told a story about a project or two where it was clear they never used the isos or were unaware of them being there. And I've dealt with sound editors who had to fight and argue with the editor to get them to give him multi-track OMFs to work with. They were trying to give the guy just mono, or maybe 2 tracks, and he knew there was a lot more available. In some cases, that saved the show.

I'm not sure if this stuff is due to carelessness, lack of knowledge, limited time, limited budget, or just plain stupidity. (Or most of the above.)

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For me, the iso is the safety net. I have a pretty standard email I send out with the Sound Log that says, "the mono mix on channel 1 will work 90% of the time, but in the event an actor is off-camera or I made a late fader move, all the isos are available to plug in the missing word or line." I only say this to people who I'm concerned may try to use all the tracks at the same time, or may not be aware that the mono mix is meant to be used.

Steve Deichen has told a story about a project or two where it was clear they never used the isos or were unaware of them being there. And I've dealt with sound editors who had to fight and argue with the editor to get them to give him multi-track OMFs to work with. They were trying to give the guy just mono, or maybe 2 tracks, and he knew there was a lot more available. In some cases, that saved the show.

I'm not sure if this stuff is due to carelessness, lack of knowledge, limited time, limited budget, or just plain stupidity. (Or most of the above.)

+1

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I love 2 track mixing as I feel I'm monitoring properly and in control.

I've mixed a lot of American TV movies that way and smaller films.

If well done it gives post less work especially for tight delivery times.

Iso fine but a mono mix is difficult if a lot of radios

mike

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