Tram lavs - half happy / half unhappy.

[ktime9]

I have been using DPA 4060 lavs for a few years now, for both environmental field recording and dialogue recording, and have always been blown away by how much detail they pick up for a miniature microphone!

Recently, for the first time I found myself using some Tram lavs to capture dialogue on a shoot, and I must say I absolutely love them. Although they don't pick up the top-end as well as the 4060s, they seem do deal with the low-mids better and really add a particular warmth that I found to be lacking in the DPA lav mics. I also find them easier to mix with my Rode NTG3 recordings.

After the shoot I decided to see how they performed in capturing ambient sounds, and I must say I'm not all that impressed! the recordings seem quite flat and almost muddy i.e, the air conditioner was too present and thick, and the low and hi frequencies didn't seem as pronounced and solid as what I'm used to with the 4060s.

I'd be VERY interested to hear other peoples experiences and thoughts on the subject.

Marty

[Philip Perkins]

Well, they are designed specifically for lav-type mounting on people to record their voices, and that's pretty much all they are designed for. They've been an industry standard for decades because they work pretty well for that purpose at a reasonable price (esp re DPA mics).

phil p

[Marc Wielage]

Trams have their pros and cons, and some very, very big films have used them (as in the recent King's Speech, nominated for several Oscars). And speaking of Oscar, Oscar Sound Tech has a very decent inexpensive lav pretty much identical in performance and appearance to the Tram.

I find myself preferring the Countryman B6 most of the time, just for sound quality and mounting/hiding options, but there's several good choices out there. I think the Sanken COS-11 is probably the front runner for sound quality, but it's a subjective area.

[Jim Gilchrist]

I've used Sonotrims, the Tram version designed and distributed by Posthorne Recordings, mounted in the boundary layer adaptor with some success for effects and as audience mics at events. Perhaps worth a try?

Best regards,

Jim

[OmahaAudio]

I've used Sonotrims, the Tram version designed and distributed by Posthorne Recordings, mounted in the boundary layer adaptor with some success for effects and as audience mics at events. Perhaps worth a try?

Best regards,

Jim

This will allow you to use a Tram as a boundary mic? Can you just lay it down on a table like a PZM mic?

[studiomprd]

" This will allow you to use a Tram as a boundary mic? "

that is what he said.

[Michiel]

The DPA 4060 (or a lower sensitivity version) is used for recording classical instruments, actually. They have a very natural sound, like Schoeps and no off-axis coloration. When placed in hair it becomes a 'miniature boom mic' I prefer the 4060, only downside is they are quite fragile.

[OmahaAudio]

" This will allow you to use a Tram as a boundary mic? "

that is what he said.

That's not what he said.

[Jim Gilchrist]

Sonotrim and Tram mics are physically identical. All Sonotrim accessories are really Tram accessories. The mics and accessories are made in the same place and Jerry Bruck specified a slightly different capsule for Sonotrims and as Rich said, the Sonotrims have a little flatter response which makes them a little more useful as a plant mic or in the boundary layer adaptor, at least in my opinion.

The boundary layer adaptor used to be included in both Sonotrim and Tram kits, along with a tapedown clip, a vampire clip, a cable tiedown vampire clip and a pop screen. For some number of years, the boundary layer adaptor has been an optional accessory for the Tram line of mics but it's still a standard part of the Sonotrim package. The adaptor is reasonably priced at $11.00 and while I got 1 in each of my Sonotrims when I bought them, it's an accessory I wouldn't hesitate to purchase.

Yes, you can tape a Tram or a Sonotrim mounted in a Tram "Clip, Tape Down Boundary Layer" (actual part name) to a table top, window, wall, door or other surface of your choice. The element faces downward when mounted and the clip is designed to hold the element at the correct distance from the surface to make the whole works a boundary layer mic.

Best regards,

Jim

[Jim Feeley]

Countryman takes a similar TRAM/Sonotrim approach with their EMW lavs. If you order an EMW with the shelved, or S, frequency response, you get a mic with a 6dB "shelf" between 2kHz and 15kHz; a response we associate with standard dialog lavs. The Flat (or F) response is good for recording ambient sound and musical instruments. The Peaked response has a 12dB curve at 12kHz to help cut through clothing. More info here:

http://countryman.com/download/EMW%20Lavalier%20datasheet.pdf

And Countryman has a "stage mount" that back in the day worked pretty much like a boundary layer. Ah; here. But note that it's designed to be used with their ISOMAX instrument mic. Not sure how the mount would work with an EMW:

http://countryman.com/store/product.asp?id=62&catid=25

DPA does something similar with their 4061 vs 4071 freq responses.

More of my meandering, and perhaps this whole thread: It's worth digging through our vendors' and dealers' websites to learn what options and accessories they offer for their products, and see what suggestions they provide for choosing and using their products.

Thank you and good night. :-)

Jim "loves application and tech notes" Feeley

[ktime9]

Thanks all, theres a few new names for me to consider.

The DPA 4060 (or a lower sensitivity version) is used for recording classical instruments, actually. They have a very natural sound, like Schoeps and no off-axis coloration. When placed in hair it becomes a 'miniature boom mic' I prefer the 4060, only downside is they are quite fragile.

Well as it comes down to it I've still not heard a more versatile and sensitive miniture mic than the 4060 - but I seriously think I will shift to trams for close body dialogue recordings, and reserve the DPAs for other applications.

Out of curiosity has anyone had experience with the Sony ECM miniatures?

[OmahaAudio]

@OmahaAudio, what Jim Gilchrist said, was that he had used Sonotrims with the boundary layer adaptor.

Which is not what Mike said that he said.

What the Senator is trying to tell you, is that from Mr. Gilchrist's comments you should surely be able to extrapolate that he used a Sonotrim lavalier, in the Tram boundary layer adaptor.

For someone that demands specificity as much as Mike, specificity is demanded.

So one can assume...

You know what they say about assuming...

[OmahaAudio]

Yes, you can tape a Tram or a Sonotrim mounted in a Tram "Clip, Tape Down Boundary Layer" (actual part name) to a table top, window, wall, door or other surface of your choice. The element faces downward when mounted and the clip is designed to hold the element at the correct distance from the surface to make the whole works a boundary layer mic.

Awesome. Thanks.

[Marc Wielage]

I will add that Oscar Sound Tech has both a "peaked" (801) and "flat" (802) version of their standard lav, which resemble the original Tram and the Sonotrim. I think the decision on which to use depends on whether you bury them under a shirt or not.

I think it's easier for a re-recording mixer to knock down the highs on a bright lav than it is to try to punch up the highs from a too-dull microphone. (Perhaps a re-recording mixer can add to the discussion.)

[jrd456]

Most lavs. have there freq. response modeled to compensate for the low freq. resonance of the chest.

J.D.

[Michiel]

I think it's easier for a re-recording mixer to knock down the highs on a bright lav than it is to try to punch up the highs from a too-dull microphone.

True. When boosting up highs you increase static noise (from the mic or transmitter or both), while doing the opposite you obviously decrease any static noise. Apart from that it is more pleasant for the editor to work with non-dull sound.. The 4060 also has a high-boost grid for the same capsule.

[studiomprd]

" Cheers, "

Thanks Richard...

" specificity is demanded. "

I'm so ashamed.... I'll try to do better... :'(

...and do I detect a note of hostility ??

[OmahaAudio]

" specificity is demanded. "

I'm so ashamed.... I'll try to do better...

Doubtful, on both counts.

[studiomprd]

" Doubtful, on both counts. "

that's helpful...

OK, never-mind...

[Marc Wielage]

True. When boosting up highs you increase static noise (from the mic or transmitter or both), while doing the opposite you obviously decrease any static noise. Apart from that it is more pleasant for the editor to work with non-dull sound.. The 4060 also has a high-boost grid for the same capsule.

Same deal with Countryman: flat, crisp (+4 @15K) and extra-crisp (+8 @ 15K). I carry all three caps depending on the circumstances, but under a blouse or shirt, extra-crisp works for me.

I just heard a major dramatic cable show tonight (no names), and due to the late hour, listened to the entire show in headphones. I was appalled by the mis-match in EQ between lavs, even within the same scene. Bright, dull, middle... all over the place. No question, the dull takes bothered me the most. I'm guessing the budget on this show is well over $1M an episode, too.