studiomprd Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 " what about the fans " They have to protect the camera innards... I didn't disagree, but there is nothing new about the situation. Our host just completed a major motion picture shot on multiple Epic image capture devices... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 <<nothing to see here, double system, now move along... >> Senator, i have to say here - BULLSHIT. We all know it is double system. there is nothing to "move along". if a camera won't allow a rehearsal to take place in quiet, it is something to consider as a PROBLEM. and this has nothing to do with single/double system. our host mentioned clearly the lack of silence before Take 1 and that take 1 becomes our rehearsal - something repeated by the good sound guys from Hobbit. Add to this a set of people (direction department, production, camera dept too) who don't give a shit about sound from location. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Red Epics could have a better heatsink set-up and have it so the fan blows out the back of the camera.They could cut the problem in half if they gave a sh#t about sound.Try talking to them about this and listen to there reaction.-----not good.My friend owns 3 of these and I've had a chance to take a closer look at the Epic.I believe the first epics didn't have a fan so they funked one on when they realized it needed one.They are a funky company but were the leader in price to picture quality ratio.Now the competition is getting stiffer and I hope more comprehensive reasonably priced camera will dominate. J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 " My friend owns 3 of these " exactly... he is the one you need to be complaining to... As long as these toys sell like proverbial hotcakes to so many folks across a broad spectrum of the market place, all the way up to and including major motion picture DP's, they will continue to be around and we will get to deal with them, just as JW did. Until either we sound folks start making the decisions of the "images capture devices" being used, and or folks like your friend -with three of them- to make it clear they will not be selecting unsuitable "images capture devices" there is nothing we can say or do that will have much significance, or result in the changes we seek. " BULLSHIT " well, yes, but we have the option to not work on the projects... Just as Jeff did. He, and GT took the gig, and have not indicated that they regret it, or hated it, or any such rants... Thus, it is what it is, and all the folks here whining about it (and RED's lack of interest in our whining) are just preaching to the choir.. It seems the producers of 42 selected a DP they wanted, and agreed to use his choice of equipment, something that is not unusual; they certainly could have insisted on using, for example, the more sound friendly Alexa's with another DP. So it was not RED who made the choice, it was the production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 ... we have the option to not work on the projects... Just as Jeff did. He, and GT took the gig, and have not indicated that they regret it, or hated it, or any such rants... I DID hate it, the part about fans running full bore until they actually rolled, and I would say several other significant players hated it also, including the Director, the Actors and even the Camera dept. The Camera Operator (who is the closest to the camera fans) had great difficulty hearing the dialog during rehearsals and difficulty hearing the actors' responses to his directions or questions. None of this is worthy of a rant, here, since that is the way this movie was made. Don Burgess likes everything about the camera except for this serious flaw, the design and operation of the "cooling system" to protect the camera, and has had numerous conversations with the RED camera company about this. I would say they are just about as upset with this aspect as I am but with one very crucial difference --- they own the cameras, they chose the cameras, the love the image. No Sound Department will be able to alter their choice of DP or the camera they want to use, but ALL sound mixers will be able to make the decision whether to take the job or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 " I DID hate it,...several other significant players hated it also, including the Director, the Actors and even the Camera dept. The Camera Operator (who is the closest to the camera fans) had great difficulty hearing the dialog during rehearsals and difficulty hearing the actors' responses to his directions or questions. " Thanks for the input... and glad to note: " Don Burgess likes everything about the camera except for this serious flaw, the design and operation of the "cooling system" to protect the camera, and has had numerous conversations with the RED camera company about this. " (what results from these conversations..??) so there it is: even with the owners, DP's, complaining, They still make them that way, and the owners keep on buying and using them that way... Remember once upon a time, back when cameras were major-ly noisy, production built rooms around them! that isn't going to happen these days, and once upon a time when cameras didn't all have proper sound blimping, most productions spent more and used blimped versions (with Crystal speed control, as well)... but those days are gone, too, so I suppose we better get used to it, and "move along". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted July 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Red makes me so mad I see Red.......that's my rant J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Remember once upon a time, back when cameras were major-ly noisy, production built rooms around them! that isn't going to happen these days, and once upon a time when cameras didn't all have proper sound blimping, most productions spent more and used blimped versions (with Crystal speed control, as well)... but those days are gone, too, so I suppose we better get used to it, and "move along". I made a joke about that on the Red discussion group, comparing it to 1927 Singin' in the Rain sound, where they had to build a blimped room around the (noisy) film camera. They didn't see the humor. My suspicion -- and I am by no means a camera or physics expert -- is that they made the Red Epic camera body so small, it doesn't have enough surface area for heat sinks, fans, and ventilation, making it prone to overheating. I don't think it's a coincidence at the Sony F65 and the Arri Alexa are significantly bigger cameras, but their fans run significantly quieter. BTW, I just caught a screening of the new Spiderman movie -- shot on Red Epic -- and thought it looked terrific. The cameras make great pictures. Very good dialog throughout, too, a fantastic mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHall Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 On day three where I am DP on a RED Scarlet (student thesis film). I will say that having fans roaring (literally) when not rolling is frustrating to say the least. I've had multiple people have to walk right up to me to ask a question because I couldn't hear them from 15 feet away when the camera was idle between shots. Small mercy is when we are running on battery, the policy is to power down the camera if there is more than 30 seconds between takes. The other small mercy is that running the fans at 30% while rolling is so much quieter, but probably only relatively, because it's so deafeningly loud otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peggynames Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 The worst is shooting with the 3D Red which utilizes 2 fan filled bodies! And for some reason the camera crew says they cannot use the battery power while using the techno crane....Ugg....This puts the noisy power supply right up even with the mic...I sure hope they come up with a solution soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Johnson Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 My suspicion -- and I am by no means a camera or physics expert -- is that they made the Red Epic camera body so small, it doesn't have enough surface area for heat sinks, fans, and ventilation, making it prone to overheating. Marc that is our feeling down here after 18 months working with them that they did not need to be so small and would have been a far different camera had they been a little larger not just for cooling issues but connectivity too. Trouble is now they have the physical platform will they make significant changes to the Epic. it's all very well improving heat sincs and fans but that won't make a big difference. I am wondering if they made them that small to tap into the stills area as they are quite a cool digital large format style cam that shoots movies too . Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted July 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 I'm going to be doing a 3D movie using two Red Epic 3D rigs all the time.I think I'm going to be feeling your pain Peggy. J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 18, 2012 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) " Very good dialog throughout, too " the real (as in well funded) productions can and do cope with the sound as needed in post, it is all the wanna-be jerks who think it is about the arrow and that shooting their POS on an EPIC (or other RED) will make it a great epic! The major movies today are making choices, just as Monumental Pictures did when they built rooms around their camera. " The cameras (EPIC) make great pictures. " so does the Alexa! " Trouble is now they have the physical platform will they make significant changes to the Epic. " probably not, but the good news is that EPIC will be obsolete in a few years, just as the RED ONE is rapidly becoming... " they did not need to be so small " style over substance. " I don't think it's a coincidence at the Sony F65 and the Arri Alexa are significantly bigger cameras, but their fans run significantly quieter. " I know, I've said this before, but I call the Alexa "RED done RIGHT". ARRI was and still is a 'professional movie' camera company. Sony is an Electronics giant. When they designed professional cameras for making real movies, they considered the entire process... RED is descended from Sunglasses company (which was built up to be sold!) where new models and uber-style are king! Of course, Sony, like Canon and Panasonic, makes lots of lower tiered products for different target markets " where they had to build a blimped room around the (noisy) film camera. " and because the movie-makers cared about the sound for their movies, the camera companies were coerced by market forces to invent quiet cameras for movies -- note these were expensive professional cameras, and not the same cameras used by amateurs for "home movies" Edited July 19, 2012 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 RED is part of a Sunglasses company where new models and uber-style are king! Small correction: Red Camera was started by Jim Jannard, who made billions of dollars with his previous company, Oakley. He sold Oakley to an Italian sunglasses firm in Milan in 2007, so technically, the two companies are separate and no longer owned by one person. We're in agreement on the main points, which is that the camera's priorities put sound and timecode very low on the designers' list. It's interesting to note that the Sony F65 -- also a 4K camera -- has no audio inputs at all. So it's strictly a double-system camera. People are obviously developing workarounds in productions, even for dual-camera 3D situations, to get the camera to work. And the company is aware of the noise issues and came up with some updates a few months ago (including a new heat sink and a new fan), so it's fair to say they're listening to the complaints. Still, it's interesting to note that most of the episodic TV business has swung over to the Alexa. Feature production is wide open, where everything is being used -- sometimes even several different kinds of cameras, different resolutions, and different formats on the same show. It's the Wild West out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Lightstone, CAS Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 I'm having the identical problems that Jeff faced on a feature we are shooting in Savannah also with two Red Epics. On our so-called sound stages, there are huge air hoses from an added outside air conditioning unit that runs during all rehearsals. Combined with the loud fans on the Epics we never know what the sound issues are until the camera rolls and we are slated, obviously too late to fix until we cut. The "sound stage" is a converted meat packing factory, with metal roll up doors and all sorts of noises leaking in from every corner. Our Utility and all the P.A.s are running around like mad to locate and attempt to stop the errant noises. It all adds up to unnecessary added work to record clean tracks, made more difficult with the fans on the Epics. Long live the Alexa and of course film cameras! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Forgot to add another very legitimate gripe with the Red Epic: I'm still appalled that they used 3.5mm mini-jacks as the main channel 1 & 2 inputs on the Epic. There are a lot of bad, cheap audio connectors out there, but to find these on a $40,000 camera is pretty unforgiveable. You can buy an accessory that adds XLRs to the back of the camera, but only for channels 3 & 4. I have no clue why they abandoned the TA3's used on the original Red One camera, except that they sacrificed those jacks purely for size considerations. I sympathize with Richard trying to stifle noise problems on a hostile location like that, especially during our current national heat wave. It's getting to the point where the sound department is going to have to sound the bell, start the warning lights, kill the air conditioning, and silence the camera prior to every take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlimp Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Have to chime in here - during our last (a commercial) shoot on RED, there was great communication, cam dept. and director were concerned with sound, as there were lots of dialogue, so the fans were kept down, single short takes, great silent dolly moves, everything super solid. Then the producing agency thought they could do audio post themselves. Now they have a great looking clip with constant abrupt changes in roomtone (mainly the fan noise), which they tried to cover up by adding even more noise. I delivered them a solid roomtone track and even explained how to use it, but the finished commercial sounds as if they slammed the roomtone track on top, plus some additional noisy ambiance track. It makes me sick to take good care during shoot and then have someone who is even more amateurish than me mess it up. And I bet the guy who did it charges three times my daily rate. Ah, whatever, just a little rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnewton Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Further to Marc's comment about the change in audio connectors on the Epic/Scarlet - I got two XLR-TA3 cables made up for the RED one and used them for one series. Now they sit in my bag, haven't come out for over a year. Oh, yeah, those suckers were expensive! learned my lesson, though. Time code cables for the Scarlet are now the responsibility of the camera department. My custom ALEXA cable was a good investment though. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted July 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Listen Red---------"Talkies" are here to stay. J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 19, 2012 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 " It all adds up to unnecessary added work to record clean tracks, " in this case, there seem to be a lot more issues than the fan... " trying to stifle noise problems on a hostile location like that, " but a constant is not being able to properly attack the other issues until the camera goes quiet (as in "rolling"). " On our so-called sound stages, there are huge air hoses from an added outside air conditioning unit that runs during all rehearsals. Combined with the loud fans on the Epics we never know what the sound issues are until the camera rolls and we are slated, obviously too late to fix until we cut. " the good new is that on these major (funded) productions, the first couple of takes usually are really the last couple rehearsals. " Now they sit in my bag, haven't come out for over a year. " part of the cost of doing (equipment package rental) business ... " now the responsibility of the camera department. " or, at least the production. If I need to make them, they are billed with expendables. " It makes me sick to take good care during shoot and then have someone who is even more amateurish than me mess it up. " you do your job the best you can -all things considered--, then you turn it over to the production, and get your pay. what you describe is common with projects that are already out of money, usually overspent by the end of production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlimp Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 " It makes me sick to take good care during shoot and then have someone who is even more amateurish than me mess it up. " you do your job the best you can -all things considered--, then you turn it over to the production, and get your pay. what you describe is common with projects that are already out of money, usually overspent by the end of production. either that or bad judgement: someone is rather "keeping" the money because they "feel it's not that bad". well I think i'd better get used to this kind of stuff or face some major frustration in the future. but i'd rather get used to it and enjoy the good sides of the job. sorry for going OT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 My suspicion -- and I am by no means a camera or physics expert -- is that they made the Red Epic camera body so small, it doesn't have enough surface area for heat sinks, fans, and ventilation, making it prone to overheating. I don't think it's a coincidence at the Sony F65 and the Arri Alexa are significantly bigger cameras, but their fans run significantly quieter. Just from a thermodynamics sense, that sounds valid. They were shooting for small and light, and that's what makes it hot. If there is ever a processor upgrade, it may run cooler. That's probably what is getting super hot. Same way the newest, fastest processors go in computer towers, and the cooler (slower) versions can be used in laptops. Red is using cutting edge components in small cameras and making sacrifices to do so (cooling fans). The Red One was a similar situation. The original version was using innards nobody else put in a motion picture camera. It took a LOT of processor power to capture and handle that firehose of data, especially compared to a still camera. My understanding is that the Red One used components developed for a still camera, but figured out how to capture that image as video at max resolution. That's probably why the MX processor upgrades were also quieter. Yes, the Alexa made a quieter camera, but how many cameras did Red sell before the Alexa hit the streets? They also did it cheaper, and those are two things that carry a LOT of weight with camera people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted July 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 The "X" up grade to the Red Epic makes the Epic a lot quieter by changing the fan and the heat sink.A production co. I work for say they are going to have Red upgrade the Epics with the "X" mods after prodding them."If you bitch,it will happen"[field of nightmares} J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orionflood Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 I hate this whole conversation, especially hearing it from the ones who are actually working on the current top notch blockbusters. I thought I was dealing with a phenomenon when I couldn't listen to rehearsals and when the director says lets go right back in while the camera is still rolling I have to say, "no sorry we have to cut I hear something over in this corner I've gotta turn off" They all look at me like I'm a freakin idiot. I just simply...had...no way of hearing it beforehand. I also didn't understand why the production house I worked with insisted on really only using lav sound and not using boom as much...BECAUSE THE DAMN CAMERA ***WAS*** THE ROOMTONE!!!! and you heard it more on boom than lav...I don't know why I want to even do this kind of stuff if this is going to be the norm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mateuf Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 all of the above. three days into my first feature with this cam, and i hate it. do we really have to get used to this ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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