Jump to content

Mixer for first sound cart?


Guest Taskin

Recommended Posts

Guest Taskin

Hi all, first post here, but have been reading for some time now.

Have been working freelance in studio and on sets doing long features, tv series and commercials for about 5 years and now want to finally build a more advanced mobile recording setup for myself as work seems to be coming in regularly.

I know a Sonosax would be the perfect way to go as the center of my sound cart, but had another idea in mind and would like to get some of your expert advice on this.

I love Crane Song gear, I use it in my studio (Flamingo and Avocet), so i thought about purchasing a Spider and using that as the front end on a sound cart along with my 788T. Searched around for some info but it seems like it is used primarily for music, however the combination of very high quality preamps and AD converters, along with some controllable "character" option sounded very appealing to me, and for 8000 dollars. I thought if I add a CL9 for the mixing part as well, that should also give me all the mixer/fader/coms options that the Spider lacks. This would total to about 10K, which is not that bad compared to a fully equipped 8 track Sonosax mixer/recorder. I believe that would cost double.

Now, is this a horrible idea?

First issue is the fact that I have not had much experience with a sound cart that would require powering gear of this voltage with portable batteries. Always been a "over the shoulder" recorder so far. Im not even sure if its possible, but I have seen people use rack gear on sound carts that are powered with car batteries, plus I have found gear by PSC for power inverting and distribution, which seems like it is meant for this purpose (i might be very wrong also).

So my other question is, can I run it with a battery?

Obviously my real aim here is to improve the sound quality of my recordings, so having a high end preamp/AD converter attached to my current 788T through AES for multitrack recording and maybe even a better clock, should definitely give me some improvements. I have worked along with more experienced mixers who hate the "clean" 788T preamps and prefere more expensive gear such as the Cantar or Sonosax which appear to have a more "film sound" character. I am assuming this is due to the analog circuitry, which the Spider can replicate in a controllable manner or it can be totally clean. I also have the option of tape simulation which can add more "warmth" for a fuller sound if i wished.

So final question is, is it all really worth it? I am eager to get on a nice cart, I have been saving for some time, but also can wait longer for a Sonosax, which I know is meant for this purpose, it can run off battery, can have EQ on every channel, is a recorder its self, and has almost everything a production mixer would need, all wonderfully packed into a decent sized box. But it is just so dam expensive :)

So what to do?

Sorry for the long post, and thank you if you have read this far...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 70
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I think a Sonosoax or Cooper mixer is more suited to location dialog recording. It seems like you have already thought most of this through, and and when it comes to powering and communication with a boom operator, the Sonosax and Cooper models already have what is needed. They hold their value well (a testament to their quality), but if you shop around a little, you can find these used at a decent discount. Since it is such an important part of a cart setup, wait a little and save a little more so you can get the right tool for the job.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Taskin

Hi guys, thank you for the replies and the new ideas.

Unfortunately because of my location I am reluctant to buy second hand gear from the other side of the planet, not only because I can never see it and test it, but because of tax and customs reasons mainly. Otherwise I would have chosen that option. This is a great mixer indeed and specially for that price.

However my aim is to have digital inputs to a digital recorder in order to solely use quality preamps and converters of my choice. He seems to have to boost the gain from the recorder for some reason, which kind of beats the whole point for me. If I were to use 788 preamps and converters, I can do pretty much everything this mixer does, with just a CL9 anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Spider preamps are amazing as are the converters, but it is a lot of money for something that is effectively only going to be preamps for you. How many wired mics are you going to use anyways? I use from 1 to 3 typically, and the rest are line level from wireless receivers. You will not be able to run the Spider off of DC without an inverter or custom power supply, making energy use quite inefficient. The power supply for the Spider is a 2RU separate piece. The metering on the Spider is great, calibrated for peak output = 0dBFs on the converters. It sounds wonderful, but for most production work, you'd be hard pressed to hear the difference between a Cantar, Nagra VI, 788t, or MixPre connected to a zoom recorder. For the most part, modern production gear provide nearly equivalent performance when properly utilized. The big reason we spend a lot of money for specialized recorders and mixers is to facilitate a workflow and to get clean recording passes in intense situations. The saturation and tape effects of the spider, although useful for de-sanitizing clean digital recordings for music production, would probably not be welcome for film production, where there are people in post who are in a better position to make those types of qualitative decisions.

I think that the 788t + CL9 would be a great cart based setup, as would a Deva/Fusion and MIX12. Heck, if you looking at spending that type of dough, just get the Sonosax SX-ST with converter and recorder option on-board.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Taskin

Hi Tom. The Sonosax would be perfect of course but with the addons you mentioned it will cost around 20k. But is that not why people pay that kind of money for a Sonosax? For the preamps and the converters? What else is there?

I use about 3-6 wireless mics plus a boom in most cases along with 788 and a CL8. So apart from the power problem, what else makes the Spider a bad idea?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm guessing the2Ru power supply is quite heavy.

One of the biggest things I forgot when building my first cart was the weight, which was fine until I had to get it up a set of stairs.

If you have a heavy power supply before you add any batteries you could wind up in trouble with weight.

If you are looking at a 788 I agree with Tom, really think about the CL9. Same with the deva/mix12 combo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Taskin

Hi Michael. I should look into the power supply. I assumed power would be the biggest issue here.

Do you not have assistants to help you with the cart? :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But is that not why people pay that kind of money for a Sonosax? For the preamps and the converters? What else is there?

The limiters, the comm section, and the routing possibilities.

That said, I have an AD146 for sale here now which would make a great beginner or backup board. Sorry for the plug, just make note that there are other purpose built boards out there if your not ready (or haven't a need) for a Sonosax.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

" solely use quality preamps and converters of my choice. "

this is audio snob talk...

" Do you not have assistants to help you with the cart? "

and I get a feeling you do not fully understand the gigs we do...

" I use about 3-6 wireless mics plus a boom in most cases "

so your pre's are in the wireless TX's for all but one mic.... and recording movie production sound is not like recording in a recording studio or booth... real noises will be a factor way before your mic-pre spec's would make a difference.

Oh, yeah, we've even seen audiophile folks who want to boom with Neumann U-87's ! 8)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Taskin

So why do people spend tens of thousands on a Sonosax?

Wanting decent pres and converters is hardly "snobbish". Noise is always a problem and yes good pres wont change that, but thats hardly a valid point nor an excuse to use crap gear. Noise can be cleaned, but there is not a whole lot you can do with bad sound.

I do not understand what you do because I do not know who you are :)

And yes most of my pres are in my Tx's but not sure what you mean by that. Are you sayin that the pres dont matter when you connect a wireless Rx to it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

" why do people spend tens of thousands on a Sonosax? "

high quality, rugged, reliable, portable, DC powered, purpose built (for what we do... job specific functionality!)) are just the beginning

" Wanting decent pres and converters is hardly "snobbish". "

you are going way beyond decent, into the audiophile stratosphere...

" I do not understand what you do because I do not know who you are "

but I said: " you do not fully understand the gigs we do... "

we being production sound mixer... we need to be portable, flexible, transportable, rugged, reliable, and work in all sorts of conditions, moving quickly, and be pretty self sufficient (our limited sound crews)...Also, we don't have the trial and error option to work on our sound, so we do only minimal EQ (typically just a HP filter) and leave the rest to post, with all the fancy (and pricey) stuff...

" Are you sayin that the pres dont matter when you connect a wireless Rx to it? "

YES

the mic is connected to the TX, which sends a signal to the RX, which puts out a line level into the mixer, thus pretty much putting you at the mercy of the TX circuitry, plus the RX processing. yeah, pretty much negated your fancy pre's...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that the AD-146 mentioned above would be a good way to start on a tight budget. Aside from a find like that, the Cooper 106 (and 108) still may be the best value in a mixer, and will still do most of the cart-based film/video production sound done today. They can generally be found for under $5000, with a price that depends on vintage and some options. They used to get a higher price until the Sonosax SX-64 came out for a price not much higher, but with more capability.

Glen Trew

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Taskin

Yes 20k for a mixer is clearly "not fancy" :) I was trying to work a way around that price without loosing quality. Not because I am a studio snob. :lol:

I have been on set long enough to know how it works a little. People drag along Mac Pro's and sound cards for gods sake, yes it can be prerty hectic but its not exactly a battle field Afganistan :)

So you have your Rx connected to your pre with the output low and you crank up your gain from your mixer. Which pre will you be hearing? Your Lectrosonics? Doubt it. Pres only really matter at high dB.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Taskin

" Pres only really matter at high dB. "

warning...

here it comes....

it depends.

:wacko:

" its not exactly a battle field Afganistan "

sometimes it is...

" know how it works a little. " :(

what does it depend on?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Wyatt. May I ask why you are selling it?

I'm selling it because, well, I bought a sonosax. If I didn't live in NYC, and storage didn't come at such a premium, I would probably hold onto the AD as a backup... Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury. It's a great little board though. I'll miss it.

Just to chime in on a few other points that have come up. I would argue that (even with wireless) quality pre's aren't completely negated. While its true that you will be up against the weakest link in the chain, with proper gain staging, the headroom allowed by a superior pre could still be of use. Obvioussly, this does become more noticable with a quality, hard-lined mic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Taskin

I'm selling it because, well, I bought a sonosax. If I didn't live in NYC, and storage didn't come at such a premium, I would probably hold onto the AD as a backup... Unfortunately, I don't have the luxury. It's a great little board though. I'll miss it.

Just to chime in on a few other points that have come up. I would argue that (even with wireless) quality pre's aren't completely negated. While its true that you will be up against the weakest link in the chain, with proper gain staging, the headroom allowed by a superior pre could still be of use. Obvioussly, this does become more noticable with a quality, hard-lined mic.

Sonosax seems to be the inevitable for everyone eventually :)

I aggree and also believe that the same is also true for converters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...