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Mixer for first sound cart?


Guest Taskin

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Sonosax seems to be the inevitable for everyone eventually :)

I aggree and also believe that the same is also true for converters.

I don't know that that is necessarily so. Different strokes for different folks.

I would say that for dialog recording, most stable converters will get you by. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the converters on SD, Zax, or most other field recorders. Anyone who claims to hear something like clock jitter on a line of dialog either has ears made of gold and unicorn horns, or has bought the snake oil.

My .02

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Guest Taskin

I don't know that that is necessarily so. Different strokes for different folks.

I would say that for dialog recording, most stable converters will get you by. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the converters on SD, Zax, or most other field recorders. Anyone who claims to hear something like clock jitter on a line of dialog either has ears made of gold and unicorn horns, or has bought the snake oil.

My .02

Well you dont really need gold ears but possibly a good monitoring system and good acoustics should get you listening pretty closely.

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Well you dont really need gold ears but possibly a good monitoring system and good acoustics should get you listening pretty closely.

It seems you've made up your mind... So there it is.

I still think you may have your streams crossed a bit though (no offense)

With every other element that goes into a movie soundtrack, trust me, unless something is serioussly fucked, nobody is going to take notice of what converters you used or didn't. In a blind test, I would put money on it.

And no, we don't need golden, low oxygen, Kevlar shielded DC cable to power our gear. It won't make anything attached to it sound any better or worse. (a malfunctioning cable or one with such a capacitance or gauge as to effect the current stream very well may though... But we're seriously splitting hairs here)

We with in imperfect scenarios in imperfect environments. Our job is to get a track good enough that the audience never notices that.

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Guest Taskin

It seems you've made up your mind... So there it is.

I still think you may have your streams crossed a bit though (no offense)

With every other element that goes into a movie soundtrack, trust me, unless something is serioussly fucked, nobody is going to take notice of what converters you used or didn't. In a blind test, I would put money on it.

And no, we don't need golden, low oxygen, Kevlar shielded DC cable to power our gear. It won't make anything attached to it sound any better or worse. (a malfunctioning cable or one with such a capacitance or gauge as to effect the current stream very well may though... But we're seriously splitting hairs here)

We with in imperfect scenarios in imperfect environments. Our job is to get a track good enough that the audience never notices that.

Definately agree there. I guess a cheaper mixer will be a good choice. But then still boggles me, why everyone who claims that still owns the most expensive mixer? Surely not for the coms and routing alone :)

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Looks like I started replying before reading the whole thread. Thanks for the plugs and compliments on my board/work, guys. Greatly appreciated.

One more note to the OP. I originally come from the music studio side of things, so I know where your head is. Trust me, you don't need to concern yourself with "color" so much for dialog recording. You don't need to change the impedance loading of your pre to dial in that "sweet spot", and you ABSOLUTELY don't need a tape simulation effect. You know what tape sim is... what THE tape sound is? It's compression and distortion. If you're concerning yourself with having the greates converters on planet earth, why would you introduce those characteristics? In music recording, I understand. We're talking even vs. odd order harmonics and how they appeal to our sense of musical interplay.

According to they Nyquist theorem, 48k is beyond adequate for dialog. Our field recorder converters are perfectly capable of a steady, clean clock at 48k.

Technically speaking, In our field of location sound, the path of least resistance is often best. No pun intended.

Best,

Wyatt

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Guest Taskin

Looks like I started replying before reading the whole thread. Thanks for the plugs and compliments on my board/work, guys. Greatly appreciated.

One more note to the OP. I originally come from the music studio side of things, so I know where your head is. Trust me, you don't need to concern yourself with "color" so much for dialog recording. You don't need to change the impedance loading of your pre to dial in that "sweet spot", and you ABSOLUTELY don't need a tape simulation effect. You know what tape sim is... what THE tape sound is? It's compression and distortion. If you're concerning yourself with having the greates converters on planet earth, why would you introduce those characteristics? In music recording, I understand. We're talking even vs. odd order harmonics and how they appeal to our sense of musical interplay.

According to they Nyquist theorem, 48k is beyond adequate for dialog. Our field recorder converters are perfectly capable of a steady, clean clock at 48k.

Technically speaking, In our field of location sound, the path of least resistance is often best. No pun intended.

Best,

Wyatt

Well my initial idea sprung from economic reasons and not sound quality but now I guess a 5k mixer like Trew suggested, could do me just fine.

Thank you for all the input everyone, specially you Wyatt, you've hit the spot ;)

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" I have not had much experience with a sound cart "

I can tell...

and since this topic refers to your first sound cart, perhaps you need to get more experience to really know what you want, and need.

That's why experienced mixers have evolved through various and numerous sound cart incarnations, (including changing mixers and recorders, and wireless too) as they figured out things from experience, and it still takes years of experience to get years of experience.

Without going to my old standby about archers and arrows, ??? some of us think you may be putting the cart before the horse, and going for style over substance for what you indicate you are aiming for. None of us gets hired because we have better mic-pre's or A-D's. What we don't have is inadequate gear, as there is a point where "adequate" is as good as it gets, and thus going beyond becomes audio-snobbery.

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Guest Taskin

" I have not had much experience with a sound cart "

I can tell...

and since this topic refers to your first sound cart, perhaps you need to get more experience to really know what you want, and need.

That's why experienced mixers have evolved through various and numerous sound cart incarnations, (including changing mixers and recorders, and wireless too) as they figured out things from experience, and it still takes years of experience to get years of experience.

Without going to my old standby about archers and arrows, ??? some of us think you may be putting the cart before the horse, and going for style over substance for what you indicate you are aiming for. None of us gets hired because we have better mic-pre's or A-D's. What we don't have is inadequate gear, as there is a point where "adequate" is as good as it gets, and thus going beyond becomes audio-snobbery.

Hey Senator thank you for your advice,

I may have not explained myself too well. I have not had much experience in building one but I have been to a few gigs with one when I am hired by a sound company. I was at work with a sound cart as we spoke last night. Not the most advanced one but hey, I have to work with whatever I am given until I build my own.

Having said that I have worked with quite a lot of gear but not mixers. In the US it might be all about the mixer, but here in Europe/Middle East I have not come across people using mixer consoles that often, it is usually controllers of some sort, either Cantar or SD or Zaxcom etc or bag mixers that record straight to the camera for TV work.

I have also worked with more experienced people who are sound mixers for pretty high budget production companies who hate using the preamps of certain recorders, SD being one of them. So I am not just making things up on my own. The last film I worked for "Taken 2" I was forced to connect a small Sonosax to my SD, you might say "whats the point the 788T sounds great" but apparently the sound difference is blatant to the ears of the snobs (you might say) at Europacorp.

Now, wether that is true or subjective or not, if I am going to get hired for being an "audio-snob" than let it be, I shall be the biggest snob the world has ever seen :lol: Otherwise I could not care less, the less junk I drag around with me the better it is for me always and for my back actually, hence why I have been a bag guy myself all this time. Nothing beats a bag and a Peli case in my view, but unfortunately people stop taking you seriously after a certain budget level around here, they want to "see" what they spend the money on, because most of them are unable to "hear" the difference. Silly I know but you cannot expect every producer to hear the difference between a Cantar and a Cooper Sound, but when they see a lot of knobs and lights they feel they are getting their moneys worth and I get to play with a lot of cool gear ;)

I have decided to go ahead with a cheaper mixer similar to Wyatts Audio Development and spending the rest of the money on hopefully getting a beautiful Chinhda cart if I can, along with a few Audio Wireless pairs if I get to try them, as I have not been able to get much info over the internet. Otherwise Lectro it is. These should keep me busy for a few years :)

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I can agree to some extent that tone and color is important, by it shouldnt be paramount, and it should never decidewhat gear you should have. The features are far more important. Tone and color is a bonus at best.

And btw, I don't understand how anyone can have an opinion on what your dialog recordings should sound like!? That shit can easily be done in post, and sound far superior than what your tracks will sound like... :/

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The limiters, the comm section, and the routing possibilities.

Don't forget the sexy sexy faders that never seem to loose that brand new feel. Yay dual rail faders.

So why do people spend tens of thousands on a Sonosax?

For the same reason people buy sports cars. The sheer driving pleasure. Every time I put on the cans and get to mix on my SONOSAX it's a pleasure to use and as you would expect from the Swiss it's quality to the Nth degree. The functionality of the routing,the comms, the metering on the input and output stages of each channel, are all functions that make it a pleasure to drive and do my job easily.

Also for the dependability. I have literally has a tree fall on my follow cart , just missing the main cart filling the SONOSAX with bark, some water and lots of dirt. I opened it up, cleaned it out and it was working pefectly after about half an hours work. (This also explains the tree references you might see after my posts, especially from Justin and Rob. )

Pres only really matter at high dB.

I have to disagree there. To me it's way more important to have quality pres for very quiet stuff. If I'm mixing a very quiet, intimate scene I'll get my boomie to hard wire. I know I can get much more signal out of the SONOSAX pres than I could out off a butt plug before the noise level is too high.

Michael

Edited by Michael
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Guest Taskin

Don't forget the sexy sexy faders that never seem to loose that brand new feel. Yay dual rail faders.

For the same reason people buy sports cars. The sheer driving pleasure. Every time I put on the cans and get to mix on my SONOSAX it's a pleasure to use and as you would expect from the Swiss it's quality to the Nth degree. The functionality of the routing,the comms, the metering on the input and output stages of each channel, are all functions that make it a pleasure to drive and do my job easily.

Also for the dependability. I have literally has a tree fall on my follow cart , just missing the main cart filling the SONOSAX with bark, some water and lots of dirt. I opened it up, cleaned it out and it was working pefectly after about half an hours work. (This also explains the tree references you might see after my posts, especially from Justin and Rob. )

I have to disagree there. To me it's way more important to have quality pres for very quiet stuff. If I'm mixing a very quiet, intimate scene I'll get my boomie to hard wire. I know I can get much more signal out of the SONOSAX pres than I could out off a butt plug before the noise level is too high.

Michael

Hey! So are you saying Senator is rigt, its all about being a sound snob? :)

Sorry I didnt make my self clear about the pres. I meant you only really hear the pre when you crank up the gain obviosuly, which you have to do eve more when it is a quite sound, and of course it matters even more then, since you are likely to hear the noise floor even more. Of course you would not have that problem with a Sonosax.

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Sometimes the senator is right, some times he's just funny :P

But In all honestly it's not about being a sound snob. It's about using gear that you enjoy using, and is functional in the way you need it to be on location. If your not battling equipment to make it do what you need it to do, you are more likely to end up with a better end product ie happier clients. Lots of guys are extremely with happy mixers that were not designed for location. Philip Palmer uses an 01v if I recall correctly, the Makie onix was(is?) another board people used due to the built in FireWire out.

Use what you want to use but be aware of the limitations before you get on set I guess is my point.

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" but I have been to a few gigs with one when I am hired by a sound company. "

not sure how typical that is in your market, but here in the USA, a couple of studios still have their own sound departments that supply the equipment, and that equipment tends to be exactly the same, usual stuff. On a lot of "reality" type shows, aka pack mule audio, the audio kits frequently are supplied by a rental company to the production, but again, mostly the same, and similar stuff to what we typically own. (I include "similar" as there are a couple alternative brands of items that are more popular with the rental companies than individuals, for example, Wendt mixers.)

" I was forced to connect a small Sonosax to my SD, "

hope your arm is out of the cast soon...

come on, give us a break...

but it's their money, though some of us might up the labor rate if we are forced to carry around more equipment than necessary to do the job properly.. (pack-mule audio)

" apparently the sound difference is blatant to the ears of the snobs (you might say) at Europacorp. "

you are taking a pretty big leap in drawing that conclusion. More likely they consider it a sound business investment for its qualities --the ones I mentioned...,

" they want to "see" what they spend the money on, "

This whole paragraph seems a bit hypocritical and self contradictory. Yes, professionals are expected to have professional gear, and yes, you would look out of place charging $3k/weel for a sound package based on a Behringer mixer! --note, not the expensive ones made by the premium company they recently bought, which are not seen much in Production Sound anywhere, anyhow.

" For the same reason people buy sports cars. "

and the same reasons they buy Rolex, and other expensive watches.

" it's way more important to have quality pres for very quiet stuff. "

there are many of us who would agree...

" I meant you only really hear the pre when you crank up the gain "

OK, then nevermind that... 8)

" Use what you want to use but be aware of the limitations... "

yep! the other thing is to take advantage of the experiences of other professionals, many way more experienced than yourself, as to what typically works best, and then if you have some special need, you can make exceptions to the usual, tried and true, fully understanding the pro's and con's. This wheel is pretty much already invented.

Edited by studiomprd
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Guest Taskin

" but I have been to a few gigs with one when I am hired by a sound company. "

not sure how typical that is in your market, but here in the USA, a coupke of studios still have their own sound departments that supply the equipment, and that equipment tends to be exactly the same, usual stuff. On a lot of "reality" type shows, aka pack mule audio, the audio kits frequently are supplied by a rental company to the production, but again, mostly the same, and similar stuff to what we typically own. (I include "similar" as there are a couple alternative brands of items that are more popular with the rental companies than individuals, for example, Wendt mixers.)

" I was forced to connect a small Sonosax to my SD, "

hope your arm is out of the cast soon...

come on, give us a break...

Your SD is a recorder with only two mic inputs, and not a mixer.

" apparently the sound difference is blatant to the ears of the snobs (you might say) at Europacorp. "

you are taking a pretty big leap in drawing that conclusion. More likely they consider it a sound business investment for its qualities, the ones I mentioned...,

" they want to "see" what they spend the money on, "

This whole paragraph seems a bit hypocritical and self contradictory. Yes, professionals are expected to have professional gear, and yes, you would look out of place charging $3k/weel for a sound package based on a Behringer mixer! --note, not the expensive ones made by the premium company they recently bought, which are not seen much in Production Sound anywhere, anyhow.

" For the same reason people buy sports cars. "

and the same reasons they buy Rolex, and other expensive watches.

" it's way more important to have quality pres for very quiet stuff. "

there are many of us who would agree...

" I meant you only really hear the pre when you crank up the gain "

OK, then nevermind that... 8)

" Use what you want to use but be aware of the limitations... "

yep! the other thing is to take advantage of the experiences of other professionals, many way more experienced than yourself, as to what typically works best, and then if you have some special need, you can make exceptions to the usual, tried and true, fully understanding the pro's and con's. This wheel is pretty much already invented.

Ool

Oook Mr Senator, first of all my SD has 8 mic inputs and with a CL8 it can do anything any other bag mixer can do. The Sonosax mixer which was added to it was there for its preamps and nothing more, for the reasons I have explained above. People choose preamps over other ones just as they do with converters, you might call it snobbish but the difference is there, people notice it and do stuff about it, not sure why you would be against that. Actually not even sure if you are. Seems like you just enjoy typing a lot of controversy for the sake of being controversial :)

I often get hired by sound companies who give me equipment, boom op and an assisitant. Other times I get jobs myself. So I get to try out different gear and setups. I guess we do things different over here...

I do learn from more experinced people, it is why I decided to get advice here about my plans, tho I got mixed views so not sure what that means. I guess as long as the job gets done well, its not really important how its done...

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" it can do anything any other bag mixer can do. "

quite true, I have corrected...

" People choose preamps over other ones just as they do with converters, you might call it snobbish but the difference is there, people notice it and do stuff about it, "

absolutely... thus the marketplace is loaded with options...

typically, in our work, there are other factors besides preamps and converters that are noticeable factors way before any subtle differences between, say SD pre's and Zaxcom pre's, and even Sonosax Pre's,

of course, it is productions money; and there are the all the other factors that we have in choosing amongst the "usual suspects" that are purpose built for production sound work. any we haven't even gotten into the major mixers (way different)used for live type, and musical type shows ... I once had a live audience sitcom provide external Neve pre's for the boom mic's. sure, no worries, glad to have them (I did not have to carry them!)

there are a lot of folks here on jwsoundgroup.net working primarily, or only, with bag type rigs, but on real major (funded) movies cart type packages are typically used, and I have usually described them as typically studio quality panels that are usually purpose built highly portable, DC operable, rugged, etc. etc and frequently also including specific production sound capabilities.

So far, in recent years there has been only one mixer outside this description to become popular for production sound cart packages, The Yamaha, and that is a single model out of a pretty extensive line, and other options.

I'm getting more mixed messages and a feeling that you are primarily a one person sound crew, while doing a narrative movie properly requires at least a two person crew, and best a three person crew.

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Guest Taskin

" it can do anything any other bag mixer can do. "

quite true, I have corrected...

" People choose preamps over other ones just as they do with converters, you might call it snobbish but the difference is there, people notice it and do stuff about it, "

absolutely... thus the marketplace is loaded with options...

typically, in our work, there are other factors besides preamps and converters that are noticeable factors way before any subtle differences between, say SD pre's and Zaxcom pre's, and even Sonosax Pre's,

of course, it is productions money; and there are the all the other factors that we have in choosing amongst the "usual suspects" that are purpose built for production sound work. any we haven't even gotten into the major mixers (way different)used for live type, and musical type shows ... I once had a live audience sitcom provide external Neve pre's for the boom mic's. sure, no worries, glad to have them (I did not have to carry them!)

there are a lot of folks here on jwsoundgroup.net working primarily, or only, with bag type rigs, but on real major (funded) movies cart type packages are typically used, and I have usually described them as typically studio quality panels that are usually purpose built highly portable, DC operable, rugged, etc. etc and frequently also including specific production sound capabilities.

So far, in recent years there has been only one mixer outside this description to become popular for production sound cart packages, The Yamaha, and that is a single model out of a pretty extensive line, and other options.

I'm getting more mixed messages and a feeling that you are primarily a one person sound crew, while doing a narrative movie properly requires at least a two person crew, and best a three person crew.

I am self trained and a sound graduate who started off as a one man crew and slowly got my way around into working in bigger jobs by doing a lot of reading, free work and horrible jobs. Now I never work alone and usually get to pick my gear from the companies who hire me as a mixer, while I gradually save and build my own setup. Not the most usual way into the business but hey, I'm here and no one has complained so far :lol:

If I land a job where I can work with more experienced people whom I can learn from, then I am happy to be a boom op or a second assistant. I have done long features with just me and one other but also done action stuff with split crews etc. Still got a lot to learn I'm certain :)

I see what you mean about the "usual suspects" of gear in this business. Yamaha is a pretty common mixer in studios, I have read somewhere about someone using it on set, but then I have also seen the making of Australia where the mixer was using a laptop, Appogee interface and a Bigben clock all atached to a mixer. Basically a studio on wheels in the middle of a desert(!!). So I guess nothing is really a bad idea as long as it gets the job done well?

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Thanks for the update, which provides some perspective on your situation...

very few mixers start out with their first cart made by Chinda

that, too, is probably a good idea, as when you have one built for yourself, you'll need the wisdom that comes with experience...

remember: Good judgment comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgment!

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About three years ago I made an evaluation of the PSC Solice 8-channel mixing panel for the 695 Quarterly. It was the Summer 2009 issue and is available for download at: http://695quarterly.com/previous-issues/

(That link should work for both members and non-members of Local 695)

The article addressed many of the concerns that have been discussed in this thread and attempted to resolve them with careful listening tests and with measurements made with test equipment. We made comparative tests with the Sonosax SX-ST, the Cooper 106 and some other panels.

From that experience, I can confirm that, at today's prices, a used Cooper 106 is a value purchase and secures a top quality piece of gear. And, the Solice, at $10,000 or a bit less, is very competitive with the Sonosax at $20,000+.

David

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Many good points made above. I would also add in some kinds of filmmaking these days, wireless mikes -- particularly wireless booms -- kind of preclude the ability to rely on extraordinarily high-quality preamps in mixers. You're stuck with the preamp sections built into the wireless transmitters... which are actually pretty good these days. I'm not convinced there's a gigantic difference in the line input sections of mixers.

I do readily agree that there are differences in feel, response, monitoring features, routing, and stuff like that, particularly with portable mixers specifically designed for location sound. If you were in a situation where you could do an entire feature or TV show hard-wired, then there could well be a measurable (and audible) difference. I rarely have that luxury these days.

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