Guest Taskin Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 I will add that you can take a look at the wide variety of sound carts in use all over the world at the long running Gallery of Sound Carts (if you haven't checked it out already). Thanks Jeff, I have seen this section. Are these all jwsound members? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taskin Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 OK, so while I have some attention on this thread, can I ask if anyone has any experience with the new Audio Wireless systems? If so, how would you compare them to the Lectrosonics? There is not much info on the internet about them. In fact one old thread from this forum was the only thing that I came across so far... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 Thanks Jeff, I have seen this section. Are these all jwsound members? Many of the carts featured in the Gallery are from members but there are lots and lots of them that are not from members. Bob Marts compiled the initial collection of images, I'm not sure how he did that, and I have been adding to it ever since. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent R. Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 OK, so while I have some attention on this thread, can I ask if anyone has any experience with the new Audio Wireless systems?If so, how would you compare them to the Lectrosonics?There is not much info on the internet about them. In fact one old thread from this forum was the only thing that I came across so far...This is quite recent: (see last replies)Friend of mine was considering those but ended up buying audio limited since the waiting queue for these new kids was a couple of months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taskin Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 This is quite recent:http://jwsoundgroup....id-on-the-block (see last replies)Friend of mine was considering those but ended up buying audio limited since the waiting queue for these new kids was a couple of months. Yes this is the thread I meant. I worked with Audio Ltd.'s for 2 months on a long feature. They are great but way too expensive for me unfortunately and not that many features either. I am going to try and get my hands on some Audio Wireless for testing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 " You're stuck with the preamp sections built into the wireless transmitters... which are actually pretty good these days. " You're stuck with the preamp sections, and A-D converters for many models, built into the wireless transmitters... which are actually pretty good these days. " great but way too expensive for me unfortunately and not that many features either. " and will the audience be able to tell any difference ?? Those features are often more important than any tiny audio improvement, which probably merely results in the clothing rustle sounding better Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taskin Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 " You're stuck with the preamp sections built into the wireless transmitters... which are actually pretty good these days. " You're stuck with the preamp sections, and A-D converters for many models, built into the wireless transmitters... which are actually pretty good these days. " great but way too expensive for me unfortunately and not that many features either. " and will the audience be able to tell any difference ?? Those features are often more important than any tiny audio improvement, which probably merely results in the clothing rustle sounding better Very true. I can trade a little bit of audio quality for a frequency scanner and Tx battery indicator on my Rx's any day.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent R. Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 The Audio Wireless are more expensive than Audio Ltd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taskin Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 The Audio Wireless are more expensive than Audio Ltd. Which Audio Ltd? Maybe the silver ones with the lcd but not the other quality ones, they are the most expensive on the market, along with Wisycom as far as I remember. I would confirm but im writing from my phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted July 20, 2012 Report Share Posted July 20, 2012 Pres only really matter at high dB. Unless I misunderstood, the opposite is more accurate: The difference between mic preamps is most noticeable with lower level input signals that require more gain. Less noise and more gain is something that separates most of the mixers used for film/video dialog from the less expensive generic mixers found in piano bars. Glen Trew (ultimately to blame for everything at Trew Audio) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyerEar Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Hey Taskin, I have seen and tested the audio wireless systems and they are very good pieces of equipment. I won't compare and contrast in detail, but you are correct in your assumption of the high quality and functionality. The company is small, and demand is high, so this will mean longer waits for systems to be ready... If you can hold on it would worth it in my opinion. Audio Development desks have been a standard here in the UK for years too... Where are you based btw? Best, Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taskin Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Unless I misunderstood, the opposite is more accurate: The difference between mic preamps is most noticeable with lower level input signals that require more gain. Less noise and more gain is something that separates most of the mixers used for film/video dialog from the less expensive generic mixers found in piano bars. Glen Trew (ultimately to blame for everything at Trew Audio) No you did not misunderstand. I didn't make myself clear enough. I meant the preamps quality would only matter when you turn it up (obviously). You mean the s/n ratio becoming clear at high gain with less signal, which is true. We are talking about the same thing but I was using it in another context. I was referring to a situation when the output signal of a Rx is connected to a mixer. If it was kept low and the signal is cranked up from the mixer of some sort, in theory, the quality of the mixers preamps should matter more than the Rx's output quality. No? Because Senator claimed that the quality of the mixers preamp doesn't really matter when you connect a wireless Rx to it because the Rx would be the weakest link and that no "sound snob" preamp would matter He might be correct, but I think it is because high output from the Rx = higher noise being fed into the mixer. So if you keep the Rx output low enough to keep the noise floor totally masked by the signal, the mixer preamp (if it is of high quality of course) should boost it into higher quality signal with less noise. Or not? After all isn't that what mastering engineers do in a nut shell? They take you shitty production and feed it through very expensive preamps and converters, while playing with it a little. This totally contradicts what a Lectro serviceman once advised me to do, which was to always use the Rx's with the output at +10. But if they are shit preamps then when the talent is not talking all you would hear is *shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh* ? Am I totally wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taskin Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Hey Taskin, I have seen and tested the audio wireless systems and they are very good pieces of equipment. I won't compare and contrast in detail, but you are correct in your assumption of the high quality and functionality. The company is small, and demand is high, so this will mean longer waits for systems to be ready... If you can hold on it would worth it in my opinion. Audio Development desks have been a standard here in the UK for years too... Where are you based btw? Best, Simon Thanks Simon, I am based in Istanbul at the moment, but I used to live in the UK. That is what I am hoping to find out as well when I get a chance to test them, because they seem to be the obvious choice when you look at the price and quality, along with the man behind them and the success of the Microns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DyerEar Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 the obvious choice when you look at the price and quality, along with the man behind them and the success of the Microns. Exactly. Dip your feet in the Bosporus for me! I have great memories of Istanbul from a job long ago... Aldo is easily contacted - ask and you may just get what you want... Worst case scenario - easyjet back to London isn't too expensive, and you could test them out yourself. Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 This totally contradicts what a Lectro serviceman once advised me to do, which was to always use the Rx's with the output at +10. But if they are shit preamps then when the talent is not talking all you would hear is *shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh* ? Am I totally wrong? No, not totally wrong, but a little confused about level, noise, RF microphone systems and mixer preamps. On analog RF transmitters (including so-called hybrids) the transmitter gain serves many functions, not just the level (relative loudness) of the incoming microphone. The first stage of microphone preampfification is in the transmitter, and if the level (preamp gain) is set too low, noise (system noise) is introduced and also RF performance is compromised. So, this primary gain setting is very important. Once the signal is transmitted to the receiver, most people take the output of the receiver at line level. As mentioned several places, the mic "preamp" (more correctly, the input on the mixer) if set to Line level, has totally different "noise" characteristics than a microphone preamplifier. The input gain trim when using a line level signal (which does not need "pre" amplification) will have wider dynamic range and less noise with a wider acceptable range of gain than the microphone preamplifier. As you probably know, many mixing desks have a switch to select either Mic or Line, this is to AVOID even going through a preamplifier stage when using line level signals. The noise (and we're talking about system noise, not real world background sounds) that will be most significant will always be dependent on the quality of microphone preamp in the transmitter, the method of wireless transmission (analog, analog-digital hybrid or pure digital) and not the quality of the line input on your mixer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taskin Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 No, not totally wrong, but a little confused about level, noise, RF microphone systems and mixer preamps. On analog RF transmitters (including so-called hybrids) the transmitter gain serves many functions, not just the level (relative loudness) of the incoming microphone. The first stage of microphone preampfification is in the transmitter, and if the level (preamp gain) is set too low, noise (system noise) is introduced and also RF performance is compromised. So, this primary gain setting is very important. Once the signal is transmitted to the receiver, most people take the output of the receiver at line level. As mentioned several places, the mic "preamp" (more correctly, the input on the mixer) if set to Line level, has totally different "noise" characteristics than a microphone preamplifier. The input gain trim when using a line level signal (which does not need "pre" amplification) will have wider dynamic range and less noise with a wider acceptable range of gain than the microphone preamplifier. As you probably know, many mixing desks have a switch to select either Mic or Line, this is to AVOID even going through a preamplifier stage when using line level signals. The noise (and we're talking about system noise, not real world background sounds) that will be most significant will always be dependent on the quality of microphone preamp in the transmitter, the method of wireless transmission (analog, analog-digital hybrid or pure digital) and not the quality of the line input on your mixer. I do set the gain of the Tx according to the average level of the talent, but I was not aware of the fact that the amplification we do at Line level from the mixer, has not much to add to the signal quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Taskin Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Exactly. Dip your feet in the Bosporus for me! I have great memories of Istanbul from a job long ago... Aldo is easily contacted - ask and you may just get what you want... Worst case scenario - easyjet back to London isn't too expensive, and you could test them out yourself. Simon Ahh this summer I can only watch the Bosphorus from a distant film set, unfortunately. I will contact him when I have the time, otherwise I would never say no to a trip to London, I do miss it there as well. I have never worked in a UK job, it is one thing I am always curious about. Maybe some day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsnd Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Also I feel like this should be mentioned. The receiver is set to operate at full level. You cannot "gain" anything from the rx/tx, you can only cut. Cutting too much brings you closer to the noise floor. When and if you amplify your signal at the mixer, you raise that noise floor with your signal. Proper gain staging is something I rarely see practiced with wireless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent R. Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Which Audio Ltd? Maybe the silver ones with the lcd but not the other quality ones, they are the most expensive on the market, along with Wisycom as far as I remember. I would confirm but im writing from my phone. Hmm, here in the Netherlands the DX2040 sets are cheaper than the Audio Wireless of I recall. I do have to check how much that is, knowing for a fact that dealers here give huge discounts on audio Ltd if bought multiple. Funny you're based in Istanbul. I just left it last week, my girlfriend lives there and is an AD. İstanbul çok güzel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 " Am I totally wrong? " well, at least mostly! " the fact that the amplification we do at Line level from the mixer, has not much to add to the signal quality. " it is the amplification we do from mic level (thousandths of a volt to about 1 volt) that tends to add noise. signal to noise is a ratio! no matter what preamp is used (or bypassed) after the RX, the signal cannot be better than what comes out of the initial stages in the TX. The entire idea of great pre's is that they do not add -or subtract- anything from the signal input to them... actually this is a prime concern for any and every amplifier. So after taking an original signal and putting it through an average preamp, then attenuating it and then putting it through a great preamp will not be improved over what came out of that first preamplification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rofin Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 (E in) is a 'figure of merit' for an amplifier which may help clarify the situation. The 'equivalent input noise (E in)' is as though you had a noiseless amplifier but with a noise level Ein applied to the input. Most?? 'pro' mixers feature a mic preamp topology which has increased Ein at lower gain settings. An example might be Ein -110dB at 10dB gain and Ein -130dB at 60dB gain. With the above example, the amplifier's output noise (after gain) would be -100dB and -70dB respectively, but if a signal of say -50dB were also applied then the signal output would be -40dB and +10dB which would in turn equate to signal to noise ratios of 60dB and 80dB. So, from a purely noise performance perspective, higher preamp gain is desirable, but as with most things, there are tradeoffs. For every 1dB of gain, the input dynamic range is reduced by 1dB. Low level input signals have less noise pickup immunity in cabling for example. High level signals may be approaching distortion from their own output stage. Who knows? As far as receiving wireless Rx inputs, generally the whole TX/RX system noise is greater than that of even a modest performance mixer front end and so mic or line level input I think is simply whatever takes your fancy. As an aside, mixer 'Line Inputs' are often simple resistive attenuators in front of the mic level amplifier. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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