Dan Smith Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 So I'm in discussions with a production, that needs to have some playback on set. I searched through the site as well as google and didn't come up with anything. If you know of specific threads I would love the links. It's for a typical square dancing scene. While I feel comfortable as a mixer in narrative and broadcast (my bread and butter) situations, I've never done playback on a set. Playback in broadcast usually is worked out in pre-production with the script and cues, editing them and programming them into a playback machine. I can imagine it would be similar for a film production but I want to know what is the standard. So if someone would be kind enough to be enlighten me with some of the responsibilities, workflow and typical equipment that would be needed, that would be greatly appreciated. I talked with another mixer about it and he said that he usually uses a Fostex FR-2 for playback out to some PA speakers. He said that he had marked the files in the Fostex to playback at each cue when needed. So how does this usually get organized? Do the production give you the tracks before hand with a list of timecodes and corresponding shots? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Use a laptop..... and any number of programs.... so easy, works so well... I personally would not use a recorder, but i am sure some do... I usually go into a small mixer just for my convenience. You do not always need Time code.... If so, have them make you a track with time code on one track, and music on the other... split the outgoing tracks, Music and TC, and broadcast the one with the time code on a comtek transmitter for example, send it to your slate with a receiver on the back....... and take the music track and send it to a sound system or Powered speaker... This should work fine IF you need TC.... Many times these days, you don't... depends on whether there is lip sync, and if the editor wants it... we did it for years with no time code, then for years with time code, then back again to without... go figure... Good luck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 For the last ten years I've used Pro Tools on my lap top for play back. Mush easier than using a recorder in my experience. Any program will work as will a recorder. It depends what you are most comfortable using. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 +1 on a laptop. Find out what they want re TC, different post folks have different ideas about that. Even a stereo free ware audio app (Audacity etc) can work great. I find it much easier to be able to see the audio wfm and add markers etc on the laptop than try to cue a file on a machine really designed for recording pretty much. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cujo Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Ditto the above.. For us, Production gives us the tracks, we import them into Pro Tools (use your favorite flavor software) and cue them up to play on command through a very simple PA system. when the AD calls for music, we hit play..when he calls stop- we do. Sometimes they will ask also for a thump track to keep the actors in time which is easy enough to make and we pull down the music, and pull up the thump on command. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Anderson Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Hi Dan, We don't use a separate TC for our music playback on Smash. I record an Iso track of the music and Assistant Editors use that to sync the music. What I would do first is figure out if any dialogue (scripted or not) is in danger of being ruined by playing the music. If there isn't, then simple playback over loud speakers will work great (Like afewmoreyears and Crew, our playback operator uses Pro Tools). If dialogue is in danger then things get trickier. If the dancers can do what they need to do with just a steady beat, then you can use a thump track. You'll need a sub woofer and someone will need to create the thump track (which is a steady pulse on the beat of the music, but at a very low frequency so as to make it easier to mask, filter or hide in post). If people need to hear the music instead of just a thump track then you may need to get ear wigs (in ear monitors) for everyone. That's the more expensive route. On our show, I routinely ask my playback operator to fade or switch between speakers, thumpers and ear wigs during songs depending on what we're trying to record clean and what the performers need in terms of music presentation on set. Figuring out how the scene will play out will go a long way towards getting what everyone needs. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
graham Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 Is this dialogue with music? Typically in square dance there is a "caller" that directs the dancers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Smith Posted July 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 I love this thread. I haven't posted much as I have just been soaking up knowledge but whenever I have you guys have been amazing. Thanks graham for the reminder on the caller, I wouldn't have remembered that. I don't have any details for dialogue or timecode but I am feeling much better educated for my next discussion with them. It's good to know that a lot of people use protools for playback because I'm very comfortable with that. And if they have a good PA then I won't have to worry about equipment really. I'll let you know how it goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 " worked out in pre-production with the script and cues, editing them and programming them into a playback machine. " yeah, it should be like that, only different! your getting good advice to select from, as the specific needs are determined; you may need to record (and PA) a mix of the music track + the caller (if live)... for video, recording to the camera(s) may be all you need... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Palmer Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 I'll chime in too... We're pretty much the same run down as Smash. No time code except when we do off speed playback that needs to re-sync to the master track. We use Pro-Tools for all our playback, prepped specifically for our needs. It's grown over the years. All the vocal stems are available to us, music is usually mixed to stereo except when there is something special. I run a two track mix, and split the tracks when I have music that overlaps dialogue. I'll run the clean mics on track 1 and the music on track 2 allowing for a mix on the day and for the editors. They have it all split out anyway, but this way they can get a better feel as to how we did it on set. We use thumper/subs and earwigs all the time. Our track prep has all clicks, sub/thumper, vocals, music, whatever, available at any time and we can use a control surface (Command8) to mix the playback on the fly if necessary. It gets interesting. This is all very nice and complicated, but the real answer to the question above is....use Pro-Tools. It makes playback really easy... PWP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Marts Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 A little note about playback protocol (from my experience) -- When you're playing back music over a loud sytem, I find that it's important that very specific cues are given to you for the start and stop of the music. If on one take the director says something like "Let's hear some music" and the next take the AD says "Roll the playback", and maybe in between takes a singer or dancer might ask to hear something -- things are going to get chaotic. I will always try to get my "Roll playback" and "Cut playback" from the same person each and every time. It really helps to keep this person in sight at all times in case it's too loud to hear the call - they can always make that slashing throat signal for cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted July 30, 2012 Report Share Posted July 30, 2012 A little note about playback protocol (from my experience) -- When you're playing back music over a loud sytem, I find that it's important that very specific cues are given to you for the start and stop of the music. If on one take the director says something like "Let's hear some music" and the next take the AD says "Roll the playback", and maybe in between takes a singer or dancer might ask to hear something -- things are going to get chaotic. I will always try to get my "Roll playback" and "Cut playback" from the same person each and every time. It really helps to keep this person in sight at all times in case it's too loud to hear the call - they can always make that slashing throat signal for cut. If in a large dark room, or very crowded, give the AD a flashlight to wave in your direction for cut... works great and provides some stress relief for your brain... so much easier... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 If in a large dark room, or very crowded, give the AD a flashlight to wave in your direction for cut... works great and provides some stress relief for your brain... so much easier... VERY good tip, esp if the playback is LOUD... phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Anderson Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 I run a two track mix, and split the tracks when I have music that overlaps dialogue. I'll run the clean mics on track 1 and the music on track 2 allowing for a mix on the day and for the editors. When I do a two mix setup I use track 1 for a mix with music for dailies and track 2 for a mix without music for editorial. Not exactly a two track mix as both tracks get all of the mics in play, but when I'm not doing a music based split mix, I'm using only track 1 for the mix track. One thing I think you should keep in mind, Dan, is that if your project is giving you all of the resources you need then you would have a separate playback operator. If you won't have a playback operator with you then it's something to keep in mind when your production starts having ideas about what they can expect from you. The playback operator I work with sometimes has to make edits on the fly as per the music supervisor or composer. Sometimes I ask him to put more vocals into the speakers to help the performers. There are times when he has to switch quickly from speaker playback to thumper and a few ear wigs so we can grab a vocal line clean and then switch back again. There are a lot of tricks and things that a playback operator can do. But that's having a separate person manning those responsibilities. Don't let yourself get overwhelmed with unrealistic expectations from Production. On the other hand, one of the first short films I mixed was a musical. I used one 4 channel portable mixer with my recorder to record the mix and a second 4 channel portable mixer with a disc man and a guitar amp for the music playback. Not exactly ideal. It was a fun project but a challenge as well. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 You mentioned, "I can imagine it would be similar for a film production but I want to know what is the standard." If this is truly a film production, depending upon the frame rate they're shooting at, you may need to prep the speed of your playback track for proper pull-down. If you're shooting at video speeds, you won't need to be concerned about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 I just run a playback for Céline Dion video. Used Nuendo with the TC generator plugin. It worked flawlessly. I would not recommend using a recorder because there is a huge possibility you will need queues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 LIke already said, use a laptop. I've done tons of playback in production, and for the last many years I always use Audacity, which is a free download. It will do all of the things we need, such as pull-up, pull-down, half speed and double speed while maintaining pitch, pitch change, etc. gt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 Hi Dan, We don't use a separate TC for our music playback on Smash. I record an Iso track of the music and Assistant Editors use that to sync the music. What I would do first is figure out if any dialogue (scripted or not) is in danger of being ruined by playing the music. If there isn't, then simple playback over loud speakers will work great (Like afewmoreyears and Crew, our playback operator uses Pro Tools). If dialogue is in danger then things get trickier. If the dancers can do what they need to do with just a steady beat, then you can use a thump track. You'll need a sub woofer and someone will need to create the thump track (which is a steady pulse on the beat of the music, but at a very low frequency so as to make it easier to mask, filter or hide in post). If people need to hear the music instead of just a thump track then you may need to get ear wigs (in ear monitors) for everyone. That's the more expensive route. On our show, I routinely ask my playback operator to fade or switch between speakers, thumpers and ear wigs during songs depending on what we're trying to record clean and what the performers need in terms of music presentation on set. Figuring out how the scene will play out will go a long way towards getting what everyone needs. Josh +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 LIke already said, use a laptop. I've done tons of playback in production, and for the last many years I always use Audacity, which is a free download. It will do all of the things we need, such as pull-up, pull-down, half speed and double speed while maintaining pitch, pitch change, etc. gt what about tc? Does the audacity have a tc generator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 31, 2012 Report Share Posted July 31, 2012 " Does the audacity have a tc generator? " no audio software does not include TC generators (hardware). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 From a previous thread: If you don't have the luxury of a dedicated Pro Tools operator -- which I agree is 100% the best way to go -- then I would grab Courtney Goodin's BWF-Widget and play back the track on a laptop. I prep the track ahead of time and drop in audible timecode on one channel, and a mono mix on the other, then send playback timecode wirelessly to a slate. For specialty scenes (like done every week in Smash or Glee, both world-class shows that routinely pull off on-set playback perfectly), having multi-tracks in Pro Tools will allow the playback mixer to drop out the vocal & instrumental track, send thumper track only, adjust vocal levels, varispeed, and all that other stuff. If you're shooting at 23.98fps, then I'd say 23.98 timecode should work fine, no pull-down. Doing a one-man band with production sound mixing and playback is not for the faint-of-heart. Bear in mind you have to worry about speaker position, power, levels, cueing, and all that other stuff, on top of actually mixing the scene. BWF-Widget will drop in the count-off beats prior to the start of the song, but I usually prep it manually and just create the beeps in Pro Tools and drop them in that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Smith Posted August 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 Well I really appreciate everyone's input. This gig has come and gone and I didn't get booked for it. It was a last minute thing and communication wasn't wonderful so I wasn't expecting to get it. But I was booked on something else for the rest of the week so no big deal. I just want to thank you all again for not only this but all the threads on this forum. I don't pop up much but I'm an avid reader. I now feel much better equipped should this be asked of me in the future. I am much more confident in my awareness of various variables to look out for and for equipment and workflow. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted August 2, 2012 Report Share Posted August 2, 2012 what about tc? Does the audacity have a tc generator? I use a 2nd track of recorded TC in each file I play in Audacity (or Sound Studio)--audio channel to PA, TC channel to slate transmitter. There are lots of scenarios that can be used for playback jobs--on many that involve video cameras a simple scratch ref track of the playback sent to the camera takes the place of TC. It depends on how your particular production wants to work--how will they sync, do they want a piece of recorded audio (of the track, possibly with live action sound too) for each take, like it was a normal sync sound shoot, or do they just want to keep post syncing from the same audio file over and over, and so on. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundperson Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 In connection to all these, what is the slowest (high speed, if film shoot) "slo mo " , speed that can still be in done synch? How is this done? tnx! Emmanuel Clemente, CAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted August 12, 2012 Report Share Posted August 12, 2012 For the ABC series, "Nashville" (7 music performance scenes in the first episode), I am recording playback timecode onto an audio track of my Deva recorder. This allows post to instantly sync the original music track with the picture. Glen Trew, CAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.