Music Playback Questions

[taylormadeaudio]

For the ABC series, "Nashville" (7 music performance scenes in the first episode), I am recording playback timecode onto an audio track of my Deva recorder. This allows post to instantly sync the original music track with the picture.

Glen Trew, CAS

I do the same with Metacorder, and just put a note in the metadata and on the sound report giving the start time (if I didn't start it from 0:00)

~tt

[Bash]

if TC is not an issue, then you might want to consider soundplant.

It allows you to assign an audio file to a keboard key to start PB. you can adjust the in and out points, and can have multiple start points for the same track on different keys. It is quite easy and ewffective, and free, or only a few $$ to subscribe.

Kindest regards,

Simon B

[Jeff Wexler]

I'm sure Soundplant can get the job done, but could it get any uglier to look at? Just saying.

[tom williams]

Ugly perhaps but a very powerful tool. Inexpensive and dead easy to use, it fulfills many playback needs. I used it every week on the latest Adam Sandler project for last minute music cues.

[Marc Wielage]

In connection to all these, what is the slowest (high speed, if film shoot) "slo mo " , speed that can still be in done synch? How is this done?

Courtney Goodin covers this pretty well in the BWF-Widget manual, I believe. In the real world, I don't see sound played back more than 50% faster (that is, 1.5X of the normal speed), which requires the singer learn how to sing the song real fast. The camera rolls at 35.97fps, assuming film or digital. In post, they adjust the speed down to 23.98fps, so now everything is much slower, but the singer's voice is back at normal speed.

There are limitations as to how fast a singer can mime to playback. I think doubling it to 48fps would be really, really hard.

[studiomprd]

Speaking of "Nashville"...

" For the ABC series, "Nashville" (7 music performance scenes in the first episode), "

the reviews are coming in and it appears we have a winner:

" For months now, the assumption has been that the title of best new drama of the season is "Nashville's" to lose, and if the pilot is any indication, the show is not in a losing state of mind. "

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/tv/showtracker/la-et-st-nashville-review-20121010-1,0,6180956.story

Congratulations, Glen

[Malcolm Davies Amps CAS]

I like to think that no one could do playback as well as me. Armed with a Nagra and chinagraph pencil I was the King of music videos completing over four hundred in about three years.

Then I swapped a few emails with Billy Sarokin who transformed my playback life. Billy suggested I buy a Fujitsu Siemens laptop with a touch screen and install Adobe Audition. This was the system that he used to great sucess. I bought the laptop off Flea Bay installed Audition and never looked back. Brian Milliken here in the UK used the same system although I think that after a few years his Fujitsu laptop gave up the ghost and he now uses his Mac. I owe a debt of gratitude to Billy because he certainly made my life easier, I still use this system to this day and whilst I'm sure technology has moved on a laptop and suitable software is the dog's gonads for playback.

Malcolm Davies. A.m.p.s.

[Philip Perkins]

Likewise, me+Nagra+China marker+a BIG goober of tape to keep me from accidentally going into record on the Nagra in a distracted moment. I had an interim period of using samplers for playback before I got to laptops (or even desktop computers in a few instances--like the first fruity iMacs). Playback was another thing that DAT sucked for, BTW. Of course, the disappearance of Nagras from playback jobs began a de-skilling process for playback-only, no-record type jobs (ie most music videos), and now many videos do not hire real sound people any more, just a kid with an iPod to plug into a rented powered speaker.

philp

[ccsnd]

If I have to record dialog during a scene that require playback this is generally my workflow -

I run a thumper on 1 channel, audio playback on 2 and 3. Where the dialog cues are I automate fades on tracks 2 and 3 so the music will dip and leave the thump up. after the dialog, if there is a long enough break I bring the audio back in.

The thump is good, but I find a lot of actors appreciate actually having the music as much as possible.

(this is in addition to my TC track which gets output a separate available output to whatever devices need it.)

[Hollandaudio]

+1 This is why this forum is a great resource. I'm constantly: copying, evernoting, bookmarking etc

[Paul Abrahams]

Great to find this thread not much around online for playback on set. I'm a one man band so I need a portable solution for music videos. I'm looking for a battery run speaker unit (20w max) that I can run playback into via iphone headphone socket. I'll be flying a steadicam so it all needs to be portable.. guerilla style, so we can get on locations quick and get out quick.

I've found a few iphone apps for playback, some can cue, others can alter tempo. If thats not doable I'll have all the shots preplanned & song cut up into shots, with cues.

When I figure it out, I'll post up more info which could help others wanting to do similar.

[studiomprd]

hi, and welcome

" I'm looking for a battery run speaker unit "

there are lots of options, the professional 's typically use Anchor products...

[Marc Wielage]

All discussed in the thread referenced above, I should caution Paul A. that the problem with using an iPod for playback is that none of them are very accurate in terms of speed. I also think it's important to give the singers and/or dancers 4 count-off beats at the head, so they can mentally prepare for the intro.

If you doubt me, take two iPods and play them back, precisely in sync with each other. Check them again in 1 minute, and I bet they'll be at least 2 or 3 seconds out of sync with each other. This will wreak havoc in post with sync sound, if the shot lasts more than 10-15 seconds.

I think you're much, much better off playing back on a stable laptop, or taking Phil's suggestion above and playing back from Pro Tools, preferably with a reliable reference. For very small gigs, I've done OK with the iPod Hi-Fi speaker (no longer made), and as The Senator says, Anchor Speakers are what I see most often for battery-operated 12VDC playback. I'm a fan of the JBL EON-315's, when I can get AC on set. Those are loud enough to blow people out of the room if necessary.

[Paul Abrahams]

Thanks guys and Marc W for the heads up on the wandering tempos. A few seconds out? thats disturbing.

Would you say the iphone & ipad will be as unreliable as an ipod?

I could use Logic & laptop but prefer to be more agile for quick set ups, get in, shoot a few 5 sec takes, get out.

[Marc Wielage]

Play them back and see for yourself. Do a workflow test.

I agree, if the take is just 5 seconds long -- which is very standard for music video cutting -- you won't have a problem. Then again, I can remember working on several 1-shot music videos, like Steve Perry's "Foolish Heart" (late 1989) where we needed a rock solid 4:33 played back precisely in sync.

It's very sobering to do "The iPod Test" and play them back against each other and see (and hear) how bad the internal crystal clocks are in these devices.

[studiomprd]

" Do a workflow test. "

Do a workflow test.

Do a workflow test.

Do a workflow test.

Do a workflow test.

[Paul Abrahams]

Ooooook

[JonG]

Ive been asked to do playback on a music video, and the DP who referred me asked if I could run TC to a slate and camera (Red Epic). I said yes, not thinking about it too much because I do that every day on set as a sound mixer. But as I started wrapping my mind around the playback and TC scenario, I began doing a lot of research, which is what lead me to this thread, and hence, resurrecting it.

 

As far as TC to accompany the song goes, I'm guessing that the actual numbers don't matter, so long as they're always the same during the playback of the song, or does it always start at 01.00.00.00?

 

Also, if I am supplying TC to the camera, would I need the camera to be in Rec Run so that things don't get weird? I imagine the scenario where the camera is rolling, I run playback, and suddenly my TC kicks into the camera and changes it mid take. Or the inevitable: I'm rolling sound/TC and the song is about to start, and the camera people are still futzing around even though they're supposed to have been ready to roll (as happens on so many sets when I'm mixing). Am I over thinking this or am I only sending TC to the slate, audio to the speaker and camera, camera is on its own internal TC, just photographing the slate for editorial reference, and they should be rolling before me because there is a finite amount of time before I hit play and the song begins?

 

Ive done a couple playback jobs before, where they wanted TC on the slate, but never asked for it on camera (we were using non TC cameras anyways). This just kind of confused me, and really got me thinking about every scenario that could happen!

[Marc Wielage]

As far as TC to accompany the song goes, I'm guessing that the actual numbers don't matter, so long as they're always the same during the playback of the song, or does it always start at 01.00.00.00?

 

I think just for "neatness" and reducing chaos on set and in post, it's better to start timecode around 00:59:50:00 and have four countdown beeps in the correct tempo prior to the start of the song, and have the very first note (or beat) start right at 1:00:00:00 straight up. 

 

This was covered very well here and here:

 

 

 

Camera does not need playback timecode, but the editor will need to see the numbers on a slate, which generally is done wirelessly. Camera timecode is typically time-of-day -- you'd never want to put the same timecode over and over again on a single camera "roll" (folder).

[JonG]

Thanks Marc, that is what I suspected. As I said, I think I was over-thinking this whole thing!

[Philip Perkins]

I have sent TC to cameras for playback (multiple cams in fact) but this was for a very specific and highly controlled (like in-house) workflow.  Otherwise I would make the case that a better way to go is having the SLATE show the PB TC, to show where in the song etc you are at the start of the shot, and the CAMERA has it's own internal continuously ascending TC so that each clip has a unique identifier.  With this scenario script notes make sense and a good deal of confusion is eliminated in post.  There may be a reason why this DP wants playback code signal fed to the camera, but I would suggest asking why that would be.

 

p

[Todd Weaver]

Most modern editing systems can extrapolate relative playback time code from an audio track on your recording. Straight up music videos should have a wireless slate with playback time code. There used to be a timecode adjustment there for film, but most of that stuff is probably shot on a DSLR these days at 23.976. Generally with narratives with playback, music, singing, dancing, etc, I use the slates as usual with time of day jamming, and I send a timecode feed from playback to a dedicated track on the recorder. Some editing systems and software revisions of those deal with that better than others. It's always worth a conversation with dailies or editorial to find out what you should deliver.

[Todd Weaver]

I'm looking for a battery run speaker unit.

Trew audio in Atlanta has an anchor speaker on consignment for a good price. I think anchor might be out of business. Also, for a smaller option powered by two 9 volts, remote audio SPEAKEASY.

Correction- Anchor is still in business.

[Marc Wielage]

Generally with narratives with playback, music, singing, dancing, etc, I use the slates as usual with time of day jamming, and I send a timecode feed from playback to a dedicated track on the recorder. 

 

I don't think the timecode itself is necessary, but I'd agree it's not a bad idea to roll the sound recorder (with T.O.D. code) and capture one audio track directly from the playback source. At least that way, there's zero problems with them finding the specific measure of the song. The trick there is if it's slo-mo or a speed-ramp (which happens a lot these days), in which case this has to be handled manually by editorial. Syncing by eye is the only thing that will work. I've done it many thousands of times in post -- it's not the big deal many believe it to be. Takes a matter of seconds. For music videos, I got so good at reading lips, I could just say, "oh yeah, this is the second chorus about 2:30 into the song." 

 

It's clear from this and past discussions that a lot of producers don't understand how non-trivial music playback is on set. Some erroneously believe you bring an iPad and a big speaker and you're done. Not that simple, not that easy.

[JonG]

Marc, I had a friend (mixer) recently do his first musical feature length film, and the production had no idea that playback was even necessary. The back and fourth between him and production over getting someone to do playback, and getting them a kit fee for their gear, was exhausting and took weeks to get through. In the end I think my friend wound up providing the gear, but they had some low level set hand do the playback.

 

I believe he did exactly what you said though, always recording while doing playback even though there was no additional dialogue or sounds to be had, mostly for the conversations from the director to the actors, alongside the playback source.

 

That production got a good deal out of it though, Im sure they have no idea what kind of pains they were saved from in post had he not fought for playback and done such a good job on set for them.