Olle Sjostrom Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 "accept no subs unless it's vin"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryF Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 We need a picture, in this thread, of Vin in his Tuna-T. (Hope they don't think "Accept No Subs" means Vin.) Best, Larry F Lectro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAudioSynthesist Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 I've worked in India 3 times on 3 feature films. No way 17,500 could get you a 3 person American crew BUT, you could get an American Sound Mixer and 2 Indian attendants - (1 boom and 1 attendant). On the shoots I've been on my poor attendant was only getting Rs 500/day which is about 10 dollars. wrong place: post this for them on CL and Mandy. do you have Subway in India ?? yes there is subway in India. but in all seriousness, the Indian food that they will provide on set will be much much worse. So, how many pro sound guys from out here are willing to go to India for two months (with full gear) along with a Boom Op and a third - for 17,500 for 7 weeks? Me. oh wait, maybe some of you won't consider me a "pro" yet. its sad and may be lame but when I've worked over there I've worked for a lot less than that. The projects I have done have been passion projects too so thats fine, and I gained experience, won an Indian award too so that never hurts. I would seriously be interested in this. on a side note VIN, what do Indian sound recordists make? And I'm not talking Resul, I know him. I know what he makes. I'm talking about the average production sound mixer out there. Tell me in Rs please. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 " the Indian food that they will provide on set will be much much worse. " based on their budget... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 The projects I have done have been passion projects too so thats fine Thanks 'Passion Projects'! Gotta love that, AKA once in a lifetime shoots, AKA poorly paid bullshit.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAudioSynthesist Posted August 7, 2012 Report Share Posted August 7, 2012 'Passion Projects'! Gotta love that, AKA once in a lifetime shoots, AKA poorly paid bullshit.... you shouldn't make assumptions about what the end result is. out of the 3 films i've done two are complete and one is in post. the two that have been completed have won multiple awards, in the US, in Europe, in India, as well as other countries and international film festivals. the one in post is the directors first feature film but he's already won a national award for his previous film, which was a short. his movie, although it is being created on a very low budget, is probably going to be really good. the guy has a natural instinct for story telling and like i said, he's already won an award. india is a poor country, scratch that. its a rich country with a mostly poor population. the money is in the hands of a few. but that doesn't mean that low budget passion projects are going to become poorly paid bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 I was recently approached by an American director and producer to do production sound for their feature - to be shot in India. It's a 35+ day shoot over 6/7 weeks, 5-day and 6-day weeks alternating. I am now being told by a co-producer (not the one i met, but someone with a bunch of Indie film experience) that their ballpark is 2500$ a week for everything: personnel, equipment and consumables. $500/day sounds very low to me, too. Twice that would be more like it, especially assuming a 2-man or 3-man crew, and that would be on the low side. $4800 all-in would be reasonable (plus overtime). I recently freelanced for an LA company wholly owned by a famous Mumbai corporation, and we were also told that our compatriots there were making well under $10,000 a year and doing similar work. Needless to say, they laid off half the American division over the last six months, including some very senior executives... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 you shouldn't make assumptions about what the end result is. The only assumption I'm making is that as you try and justify it/them as 'Passion Project(s)' You didn't get paid very much for your work, and somebody else is making money from your, well let's call it good nature Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 " two that have been completed have won multiple awards, " did you get the awards ?? did you get paid properly ?? " the one in post is the directors first feature film but he's already won a national award for his previous film, which was a short. " did you get a national award ?? did you get paid properly ?? and to paraphrase Jon: You didn't get paid (very much) for your work, and somebody else is making money, and or "glory",from your, well let's call it good nature this sounds like a serial abuser, and just who is being abused here ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted August 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 <<On the shoots I've been on my poor attendant was only getting Rs 500/day which is about 10 dollars. >> Just on the basis of this ONE statement, i will call you a fucking whore. I dont think you deserve to be a part of this group of people. We don't EXPLOIT. -vin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted August 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 Chris - here is a reply to your personal message to me on this group. <<<<<<Hi Vin. I believe we spoke here once or twice. I'd be very interested in taking this project. Can you provide me with the contact info for the producer here in the US. I can get the sound done on that budget and walk away happy and yes, I'm America. Thanks! Chris>>>>>> You dont deserve to be a part of this group really. Your are willing to degrade the value of your services (that is if you are really a pro, since you have questioned this yourself already). You are also willing to go hand in hand with exploitation of professionals in other countries, or do with what your producer offers - an unemployed youth who is not really capable of doing the job, but just about - for - as you mention 10$ a day. What your association with such a person does to the quality of your work - you seem to allay by saying the films you worked had momentum at film festivals and you got an award out here. Great, truly, since you deserve another one - one which i shall give to you in person - a big one in the ass. You want to know how much the Indian "recordist" charges, and that you know Resul Pookutty (and how much he charges). GFY man, I know how much YOU charge. As for getting the info about this production - be sure - I will NEVER send it to someone such as you. I know of a lot of other REAL professionals out there in YOUR country who will not withstand unnecessary exploitation or work with handicaps. -vin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Davies Amps CAS Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 So, how many pro sound guys from out here are willing to go to India for two months (with full gear) along with a Boom Op and a third - for 17,500 for 7 weeks? Vin I would be willing to come out with my crew and equipment for seven weeks because I love your country and your people but as a real special deal to her I would want 80,000 US dollars. I have a close friend who is a producer and he once told me: "Just remember I have the money and it's up to you to get it out of me." If the silly cow says she can get a crew from the US for the money she is offering let her get on with it she'll soon learn the reality or am I being a bit naive in not remembering that if she offered $10,000 for the seven weeks some sad bastard would bite her hand off. Regards, Malcolm Davies. A.m.p.s. (Production Sound Mixer to the Motion Picture Industry.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 Thanks for that Vin, very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 Let's face it, Vin, this movie is not for you...it hasn't got your name on it anywhere... But, it is also a lot better an offer than some of the other "lifetime experience" projects we have discussed here on jwsoundgroup.net I know I have at least alluded in other threads that just because we are on jwsoundgroup.net does not make us all worth big bucks, and this gig would pay a one-person-sound-crew an amount that some folks here would be happy to have plus a lifetime experience (or even a 4th lifetime experience for Chris, who seems to enjoy being abused at that level); it also sounds (OK, reads) to me like that is what this production has budgeted, (even if the expectations are higher,) and will end up with. As long as someone here is not taking the gig from you, why not put them in touch, since someone will obviously be very happy to take the gig... You may even get some points from them for helping them make the connection. (Hey, they will include your name in the "Special Thanks" section at the end of the film... (OK, maybe not in the "Special Thanks" group, but at least in the "Ordinary Thanks" list! And Chris will invite you over to the set for lunch, and a laugh. Heck, he may need you to bring him a Subway Tuna.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted August 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 If someone says "my assistant got 10$ a day" and feels happy about this, I am forced to think 2 ways: 1. you dont care a shit about your assistant. 2. you dont care a shit about why your production is getting you an "assistant" who is probably a poor physical labor guy who is trying to eke out a living without any skills, and further - how you can put the gun on his shoulder to get your whatever $$ (that makes you so happy on your way back to the US) and feel good about it. I have NO respect for someone who does not in the first place display an understanding of what is the value of the labor that we do. As mixer, as boom op and as third. and I have NO respect for any mixer who does not stand for his/her crew. Years ago, i had a MAJOR issue with a mixer who was coming to work on a feature in India, and contacted me to third for him. I gladly accepted, saying it was a great opportunity for me to learn from him, despite the fact that I was a mixer out here already. Later the local line producer offered me peanuts to do the job, and obviously i refused. I put up on RAMPS then a post mentioning that local line producers may misconstrue the true worth and value of local crew for their own benefit. The sound mixer posted back saying it was for a gig he was doing and that I was not right in posting this. I stood my ground - i said i had NOTHING against the mixer, except that he should have fought for the true value of a third. The money in question was already equalized - it was not US rates that one was fighting for in India, but it was decent rates. What the local line producer offered me was a pittance. Now, I am a sound mixer with a full gear kit, on par with any feature film production kit anywhere in the world, and I have proven my capabilities both locally and on features from abroad. I CONSTANTLY fight and maintain tough stance when it comes to my crew - my Boom Op, and Second Boom/utility. I NEVER let a production run them over. I recently worked for a longtime friend on her project, 20 days or so, on a 200,000$ budget. I ensured that the money my crew got was equated to the bare minimum that I think they should get. The project paid them less than this, and I gave them checks to cover the difference to make the bare minimum. I was working for a friend, so i took the brunt of the "less-than-pro" pay, but did not pass it on to my team, despite they protesting about it. I dont think a few hundreds of $ less in my bank will affect my life as much as theirs. -vin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 " local line producers may misconstrue the true worth and value of local crew for their own benefit. " this can now easily turn into a political/economic philosophical discussion, or even argument, but while I understand, respect, and pretty much agree with what you are saying here, the fact is that one of the reasons productions go where they do is to save money, and that usually means lower priced labor. While you look at Chris's description as disrespecting his sound crew, I see it as the production at least attempting to help (though good boomers are not unskilled "attendants", but as a lot of shows provide no assistants or utilities (perhaps some unpaid "intern" PA's, but isn't that pretty low, too...??) It is also possible that the attendant was thrilled to have the job, and got a lifetime experience working on a movie. There are always the other POV's.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 You're a good man Vin, some time ago you promised to cook me some food, we should make that happen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted August 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 Senator, i have a lot of respect for you, and you are a dear friend. But here, this ambivalent approach is not really working out, ok? A movie to be shot in India has to be shot in India. Unless you want to do it elsewhere and spend money in making that place look like India. Secondly, a movie to be shot in India with Indian actors is cheaper to shoot in India rather than carting actors (who are the most expensive to handle, compared to any crew) to another country. A local Line Producer is supposed to understand and value the local crew properly and not undervalue it for his/her benefit with a "foreign producer". You seem to equate this situation with the "runaway production" situation - but this is not the case, it is an altogether different thing. This is not like an Indian crew was expecting to be paid as much as an American crew of SIMILAR experience and capability. Even though I pay 80% more for gear that you get in the US, and I get a fraction of the rentals you get out there in the US, i will still hold myself above the ground with a full set of gear on par with any sound mixer in the US. This has nothing to do with whether i live there or here, or whether i pay a buck for my espresso out here or 3 bucks out there. On another note, it is a real myth that life in the US is FAR more expensive than out here. Want to buy an apartment with about 1000 sq ft of carpet space - in Bombay? Be ready to pay about 3.5-4 million USD in Indian currency for a place in the suburbs. Just saying this, although this is NOT the real crux of the conversation anyways. While i'd be glad to get the money you get for the same kind of gig, i know it's not possible and i am ok with it. However, if you think you can charm with with a 10$ bill saying "hey lad, here's some money for ya if you can hold up this pole when i ask you to..." - i am really sorry. We have definitely good boom operators with a lot of experience out here and quite a few solid young people who can do the gig as a second boop op. And they dont get paid 10 bucks a day even on a local gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) " you promised to cook me some food, " me too... " You're a good man Vin, " The Best, the very best... " Unless you want to do it elsewhere and spend money in making that place look like India. " been done, nothing unusual...and has even been much cheaper.. " A local Line Producer is supposed to understand and value the local crew properly and not undervalue it for his/her benefit with a "foreign producer". " well, perhaps in your perfect world, but in the foreign producers' perfect world it is quite different. In the end the local LP/UPM either does what the boss(es) want, or does not do the gig. " You seem to equate this situation with the "runaway production" situation - but this is not the case, it is an altogether different thing. " I'm not so sure... I get a feeling that all this ATL talent expects to shoot cheap in your country. " Even though I pay 80% more for gear that you get in the US, and I get a fraction of the rentals you get out there in the US, i will still hold myself above the ground with a full set of gear on par with any sound mixer in the US. This has nothing to do with whether i live there or here, or whether i pay a buck for my espresso out here or 3 bucks out there. " I do understand your situation, and sympathize, but this is also part of the runaway production issue, and also reminds me of the Polish member here who wanted to know about rates in Norway for a production coming to Poland from Norway. " We have definitely good boom operators with a lot of experience out here and quite a few solid young people who can do the gig as a second boom op. And they don't get paid 10 bucks a day even on a local gig. " I completely understand, believe you, and agree... actually a good boomer is hugely important on a movie shoot (I'd rather have a more experienced boomer than mixerm but that is not this movie; this one is a one-person-sound crew, and maybe, just maybe an attendant --just as in the USA we sometimes get a "sound PA". We differ somewhat, but not really that much. You are not going to do this movie, but you are not going to cripple or derail it, either. Someone will do the sound on this project (who knows, maybe it is a tax write-off for all those ATL) and at the rate they want to pay. Frustrating, but it happens all the time. Edited August 8, 2012 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted August 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 Jon Gilbert - the UK trip - as a professional trip - has been a happening for a long time, but there seems to be a pox on it. What the hell, i may just buy a ticket and get there sometime. My dear friend Simon Bishop, Rycote's Simon Davies and others are waiting for me to make it for years now... Sometime soon my friend. Be well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted August 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 Senator, thank you. A US trip is in the making.... NAB 2013... Hope to make it this time. Been a while... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Gilbert Posted August 8, 2012 Report Share Posted August 8, 2012 Watch out Vin, my wife and I have been promising ourselves a few weeks in India for years, if we come, you'll be the first to know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Burstein Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 Vin, I'll start this comment by saying I am in no way considered a pro. I've been working out of a bag for my career and am still building my kit. The productions i've been attached with have not had an adequate budget for a utility, and when offered a P.A to help, I will sometimes gladly accept or respectfully decline. I do not ask what that P.A is getting paid and make up for their almost definite low rate, yet they are acting as my utility. If the project i'm working on does not have a budget for a boom operator (which is most definitely worked out in advance) and I get offered help from a P.A to boom for me, I will decline 95% of the time. It seems as though (Chris?) might have been in a similar situation. The budget was small, he was making a conservative amount daily. When on set was probably given help from P.A's that were most likely locals. I'm a bit surprised Chris would use someone who probably had little experience booming, but that's left up to his discretion. I know from experience that 500 rupee's a day is a considerable amount for a lot of the families living on the street. I'm sure if Chris had brought over a team that he regularly works with he would look out for them and their interests, making sure they were paid a decent wage. I strongly disagree with how you've decided to attack Chris's character. And I believe these forums are here to host everyone, including people outside of the sound department who might have interest in sound-related topics. I've taken lower budget projects, simply because I'm fairly new to the industry and do not have the experience or credentials to charge what you, or most of the mixers on this page might. And from what I've read it seems as though you live in India. I was able to live in many of the different cities for under $5-10/day for housing and food. The cost of living is definitely different from that of the U.S. You've taken a hostile stance and I hope you may ease up on Chris a bit. Best, Alexander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 I have a friend who was thinking of outsourcing SFX and dialog editing to India. And quickly learned that it would really be not much less money, just a lot more hassle. And it's true about housing there. Even renting an apartment is very expensive. Something I learned when I was over there supervising ADR In Mumbai for two weeks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Posted August 9, 2012 Report Share Posted August 9, 2012 For $2500 a week I will discount my sound package rental and send it over (if they have Insurance) and they can use anyone they want to run it. Why would any professional do a job for so little when the equipment we use in full feature packages costs 80-100K+ and we have many years of experience? This doesn't have to be a race to the bottom. We are the one dept. that most Indie directors say they don't want to scrimp on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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