John Blankenship Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Your first mistake was when you decided to screw everyone in the sound community who does this for a living. Sorry to be so "tough love," but perhaps you should address that before you ask people here for sympathy because someone wants to see how far you'll go in helping them take advantage of people in our profession. Will the beginners ever learn that they're not only negatively affecting their fellow mixers but also quickly eroding any possible future for themselves? It's sad. I'm beginning to wonder why so many of us work so hard to help beginning sound mixers here when so many of them refuse to listen to critical advice and we're being screwed as a result! (Good pick, Courtney, "The Big Picture" is one of my favorite films about filmmaking.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsnd Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 I had a similar situation recently. I had done a few gigs for this company where it was just a recorder and a shotgun mic. One day they called me for another job, same day rate, same gear rental, but at the end of it they added "on this one can you bring one of your wireless systems" sure I said, just throw on another $30 and we will be set. They gave me basically the same responses they gave you, to which my response was - you want more gear, but you don't have the budget to add the new gear. I don't rent out equipment for free, so this means if you can't pay for it, you can't have it. It's not in my budget to give you gear for free. After some back and forth they finally payed for it. They usually have the money, they just don't want to give it to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheisticmystic Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Your first mistake was when you decided to screw everyone in the sound community who does this for a living. I remember getting chided for posting a lo-ball gig some time ago. Someone with "CAS" after their name, and an Emmy under their belt took the gig, explaining that they had been out of the game for a while and wanted to re-establish contacts in the industry. Was this individual screwing John B. et. al.? I'm beginning to wonder why so many of us work so hard to help beginning sound mixers here when so many of them refuse to listen to critical advice and we're being screwed as a result! The split-brained morons who ask for "lobs", "lava mikes", set-out a loaf of white bread with packaged cold-cuts, and pay 100-200 dollars a day for "location audio techs" are in a COMPLETELY different market then the established mixers here. Best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 "I'm looking for some advice. I've not worked with this producer before and we've been in touch for quite a few months now about working together. She told me that the pay is $250/day, and it's a 3 day commitment. I did not ask her for a kit fee and provided the equipment I'd be bringing by her request." Alexander, I think a good way to begin to look at how you format your pay is to never "GROUP" your pay as a package... Always quote and treat them as totally seperate items... This way at least to them, they see the comedy of $125 for some person to record the audio on a project they are supposed to care about, and, how dumb it is to expect ANY actual professional sound package for $125 a day... Your first response should of been, " well, I never throw all the funds in one pot, My pay is $xxx for 10 hours and $XXX for my gear package... Radio mics, comteks or IFBs, any media and batteries and expendables are billed as needed... This way you sound professional first and foremost, and second let them know your gear and pay are seperate entities... thus giving you some wiggle room and notification that you expect to be paid for both... and fairly.. They know this because in reality most of the time they have 2 lines in their budget for these expenses.... Simply knowing how to discuss your pay quickly and efficiently will earn you more money, more respect and less grief.... Practice this, and stay calm and don't be afraid to tell them exactly what you expect... If necessary, bargain down a bit from NORMAL PAY... but again, always bargain from the top going back, not from the bottom trying to get paid for a radio mic. Steven, The answer is YES... To answer your second question, And, maybe there should be another forum for people charging $125 a day.... This is I would say a forum of what I would think was Professional Sound mixers, IE.. persons making a living doing so, supporting families and working in a Career... Advice given by all the nice folks should be used to enhance the overall professional working experience, technically, and in all matters in regards to handling clients... This information should (I believe) bring everyone to a professional "Standard"... Professional Sound mixers do not charge $125 a day for labor... It's that simple... a non professional, OK maybe... What do you call a doctor who charges $125 for a $1,500 surgery?... exactly... an imposter, a crimanal or a quack.. I for one do not believe in any "Market" for $125 a day... It does not exist... should not exist and if it does exist is an Abomination of our craft and I totally take offense.... for all of us.. How about saying... "Im so sorry, those are below the A.R.M.P.S.C., I can't do that....." (Acceptable Rates of the Motion Picture Sound community) To admit to being a trainee is OK, we've all been there..to admit to being a novice is OK, but to parade as a professional and act as a student is not in my opinion OK.... To sum it up, If you want to be a professional you simply MUST act as one... There are a thousand ways to do this... billing and your "deal" is one that directly affects you, and as has been pointed out, the rest of us.. Thesoundguy, Call LSC, Pro Sound NY or any other reputable sound house and ask them what a daily rental is for a quality radio mic system (with a nice lav) It is NOT $30.. I charge $75 ea. unit used, but that's me..... Use this rate you get from THEM (LSC, PRO SOUND) as your starting point... If production has questions about it, refer them to the same places... I think your selling yourself short... unless it's a G2 or something... In that case $30 is probably correct, BUT they don't need to know that... all they know is, it's a radio mic... Charge the higher rate... This practice is good for all pieces of gear.... see what the norm is and quote from them when you need guidence... a good starting point.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Burstein Posted August 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Your first mistake was when you decided to screw everyone in the sound community who does this for a living. Sorry to be so "tough love," but perhaps you should address that before you ask people here for sympathy because someone wants to see how far you'll go in helping them take advantage of people in our profession. Will the beginners ever learn that they're not only negatively affecting their fellow mixers but also quickly eroding any possible future for themselves? It's sad. I'm beginning to wonder why so many of us work so hard to help beginning sound mixers here when so many of them refuse to listen to critical advice and we're being screwed as a result! (Good pick, Courtney, "The Big Picture" is one of my favorite films about filmmaking.) Look, I appreciate your opinion as much as the next person but I think you're being a little harsh. This is of the level of student film, or close to it. I haven't been given the opportunity to undercut anyone. When we're talking national commercials and feature films you guys are the ones getting the calls and not me. Do I want to get there? Yes. It'll take a few more years of booming, utility'ing (go with me on it) and mixing as well as some free work here and there. In the meantime I'm taking the advice of many of you, because it seems as if this situation has happened in the past, and I'm interested in how these other mixers handled it. Should there be another forum for the sound mixers working the non-union gigs? Sure, but I'm definitely still going to be asking advice from all of you on these discussion forums. I came out with a great solution to my problem and even though it's a bit embarrassing to admit to my mistakes, hopefully I can learn from them. Afewmoreyears- That's absolutely sound advice (heehee). I'll now negotiate as I should have from the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccsnd Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 afewmoreyears - it was a g3. I knew there was no way they would go for a lectro rental. Trew audio rents g3s for 25 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 Look, I appreciate your opinion as much as the next person but I think you're being a little harsh. This is of the level of student film, or close to it. I haven't been given the opportunity to undercut anyone. When we're talking national commercials and feature films you guys are the ones getting the calls and not me. Do I want to get there? Yes. It'll take a few more years of booming, utility'ing (go with me on it) and mixing as well as some free work here and there. In the meantime I'm taking the advice of many of you, because it seems as if this situation has happened in the past, and I'm interested in how these other mixers handled it. Should there be another forum for the sound mixers working the non-union gigs? Sure, but I'm definitely still going to be asking advice from all of you on these discussion forums. I came out with a great solution to my problem and even though it's a bit embarrassing to admit to my mistakes, hopefully I can learn from them. Afewmoreyears- That's absolutely sound advice (heehee). I'll now negotiate as I should have from the start. First off, I agree if this is true low budget filmmaking, it's a different situation. That's a good arena in which to start learning and growing before one becomes a full-fledged professional. For some reason I was thinking this was about a reality show gig. In a sleepy haze I probably confused it with another thread. That being the case, I apologize for my mis-targeted harshness. On another note: You seem to have the opinion that proper rates are only about union vs non-union and national commercials and major feature films. That's simply not the case. Proper rates are about all areas of the industry, both union and non-union, from small corporate gigs and local commercials to network TV and major features. They're about every person who is making this a profession and needs to earn a living wage. Anyone who serves to erode those rates is hurting everyone, including themselves. Low budget indie films are in a different category in my opinion. In most cases, they're not really commercial ventures, whereas, even the smallest of corporate gigs is. Good luck with the resolution of your situation. I think I'll get some sleep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 It's simple. Are you an investor in this movie, getting backers royalties? No? Then they pay for everything. Seriously, if someone can't afford an extra $25-$50 when shooting a movie, they shouldn't be shooting a movies. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted August 11, 2012 Report Share Posted August 11, 2012 They usually have the money, they just don't want to give it to you. Nuff said!! It may be wise for you to read some books on negotiation strategies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 After some back and forth they finally payed for it. They usually have the money, they just don't want to give it to you. A buddy of mine who is a producer once told me, "I think 90% of my job is just saying 'no.'" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Just say no! mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Li Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 as sean connery in family guy once said "25 no's and 1 yes is still a yes" haha, anyway, i've learned that eventually a producer who keeps saying no to quality technicians because of cost eventually has to say yes as the collateral starts mounting (extra work in post, unhappy clients etc), so, just keep asking for the right rate! you deserve it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) " she responds that there is no room in the budget for the wireless. " Bullshit... can I say Bullshit here ?? BULLSHIT! " it's what they've decided they can get away with paying, and is flexible. " " when $50 of Starbucks shows up on set " oh, that is in the budget... " It's not in my budget to give you gear for free. " " I'm making it very clear that that wouldn't be acceptable in the future. " may I state again: BULLSHIT. Although you do mention that there is another gig with this company (they are a business, right, well so are you) their POV: what is past is prologue... they said it clearly: " She tells me because the sound crew that they usually hire provides the wireless, that me not providing them is unexpected. ", and so what you do on this sets your rates and terms! " This is of the level of student film, or close to it. " you are contradicting yourself... this is a business, they have multiple shoots, multiple producers (according to your own words)...you are dealing with a commercial venture... these folks are in business! " take Marc's advice and hardwire something and plant two of my own microphones " as per your original agreement. " But their gig changed, and I wound up going past my return time with the sub-rent... " your bad for not increasing the bill when the project changed... but that was then, this is now.... " On set, I was bombarded by the Producer, the DP, and the Director about why I didn't have this or that piece of gear." unreasonable expectations... (I'm guessing the LP you negotiated with was not there to ... explain... " "The Big Picture" is one of my favorite films about filmmaking " mine, too, and it is soooo true... Edited August 13, 2012 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 "there's no room in my bullshit for wireless" is what she meant... And I would say "I don't need wireless to get your bullshit" Budget...bullshit. Not too far off.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 Re: Courtney's very wise advice: often lowball producers call the soundie last so they can use the famous line: "all the other crew people have agreed to: _________" (low rate, long hours, no mileage or travel time, no hotel, no food or etc).. I took lots of gigs like yours when I was just starting out and less lazy--but where I drew the line was the job COSTING me money--like going out of pocket, unless that was agreed to at the start. Working lowball is bad business, but that can sometimes lead to good business. Working out of pocket on rentals is suicidal business-wise: you're giving away something you don't actually have to give! phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 " you're giving away something you don't actually have to give! " thus you are funding the project... literally paying to work for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 " you're giving away something you don't actually have to give! " thus you are funding the project... literally paying to work for them. Which is exactly what Philip said for those who are scoring along at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 and well worth repeating! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted August 13, 2012 Report Share Posted August 13, 2012 and well worth repeating! You can say that again. No... wait... you probably will. Never mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordi Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 John, don't forget he will also have to copy half a line of someone else's post, making it difficult to know who he is responding to... Then will add just 3 or 4 words of "wisdom" of his usual style, which will do NOTHING to further the discussion. Is there some prize awarded for total number of postings? Mike has added his useless touch to no less than 8 different threads just this afternoon, and ALL have a "comment" of his of less than 5 words. Why bother? Or is it that he is posting while talking to himself with a 3 second delay, and thinking he is having an erudite conversation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheisticmystic Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 Or is it that he is posting while talking to himself with a 3 second delay, and thinking he is having an erudite conversation? With certain company Jim, it is the only way TO have an erudite conversation. Or we can count how many times you tell us how much money you could make as a Stagehand. We all have our quirks, and sooner or later they all come in handy. Best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Burstein Posted August 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2012 After arguments that got a little heated I was able to get what I needed and not compromise on anything. If my instinct's are right though, I won't be working with them again after this. Then again, with this much trouble I don't think I'd want to. I'll see how production goes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlimp Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 The many discussions re. gear rental made me do a little Excel sheet, summing up each single piece of gear I usually bring to the jobs. Considered everything is in pristine condition, I assumed a 1.5% rental rate would be appropriate (which is the standard around here, not taking in account lowball offers). And damn, was I surprised to find I've been charging much too little for rental. From now on, when making my offers, I'll include a rental price for what I consider the minimum kit for the job and include appropriate "upgrade" options. Sorry for repeating myself, but joining this forum was one of the wiser decisions I made lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmahaAudio Posted August 16, 2012 Report Share Posted August 16, 2012 If there was only a way for the participants in a film to willingly take less at the outset but be assured of an honest and fair distribution of any profits that film might generate. If only... Maybe a filmish Kickstarter sort of thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geordi Posted August 17, 2012 Report Share Posted August 17, 2012 How much money did Avatar gross again? Something starting with a "b" if I'm not mistaken... Now, how much NET was there? (Hint: that line on the budget will be red and start with a "-" sign.) You have a nice idea Jim, unfortunately, the studio execs know how to make that work to fatten their wallets, using the same kind of lies that creates unpaid "internships" out of what used to be decently-paying PA gigs. A recent film here in Savannah had fully 25% of the crew as unpaid slaves, and IATSE was apparently well aware of it... Yet the project didn't have a single picketer or comment made about it. $15 million dollar budget, and major well-known actors. We are all being BADLY abused, but the organization that CLAIMS to exist to protect us... Seems to lack the stomach for that task. Instead, we get this rate abuse or "Hollywood accounting" for those unfortunate enough to agree to such deferred deals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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