Jump to content

Whispering to shouting in a single take


Yelmarb

Recommended Posts

Just looking for the best workflow to record really quiet dialogue then straight into shouting dialogue within a single take. Riding levels isn't really an option as I don't know exactly when the talent will be shouting - the joy of improv.

I was doing a little test with the limiters enabled which sort of worked okay but it did sound quite compressed so I'm just thinking of other ways around this.

I'm stuck using lapel mics as well so I was thinking I could split one mic across 2 different faders (on a Nomad and set the trim accordingly) or would it be better to double mic with the gain set on one of the lapels for the whisper levels and the other one set for the shouting?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a limitation of most wireless technology. If you set transmitter too low, there'll be too much system noise to boost the gain. Too high and the awful limiters engage.

You can do both of the things you wrote, although putting two transmitters on talent can be a problem. You can set the transmitter as low as you are comfortable with, in terms of noise, and assign it to two channels, as you described, to cover the range of the performance.

I don't know how good the limiters are on the Nomad. If you are unhappy with them, try a 302 in front of it.

Robert

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks guys. That's a good idea Eric, I can use a COS-11D for the whispering and an MKE2 for the shouting which has a lower sensitivity.

You're right Robert, mounting 2 mics and tx's isn't easy. Ideally it would be great to try to get good sound out of this scene with just the one mic. Hmmm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Boom it...I would boom it, engage the limiter, engage the -10dB pad on my mixer, ride the fader and watch the talent. There should be some obvious signs in their face and body language when they are getting ready to yell. You see them tensing up, start pulling the fader down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not for all situations, but there is also whispering and then there is whispering. A stage whisper can be delivered for effect but actor can be coached to keep some power behind it to help with levels.

Totally agree with this. Must use stage whisper, and when shouting must not 'overblow' it.

I consider it a directing problem. Would also consider booming it and pulling back a bit for the "louder-overblown" parts.

You just don't need this wide of a dynamic range... just the appearance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure why you need to lav the scene Yelbarb but booming it as Andy B suggested has a high chance of being successful in my experience. Have you seen this scene rehearsed? Is it a re shoot? Is it stated as such in the script? If I were going for the 2 mic solution, I would lav for the low stuff and boom for the loud. I say this not knowing anything about the scene.

CrewC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You will have a much harder time controlling the distortion at the lav and transmitter then at your nomad (as stated) If you have absolutely no chance at booming (even from a reasonable distance for the yelling) then the 2 TX and lav approach is your last line of defense. Mount one a bit further from the source and possibly at a lower input gain.

Good luck!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This kind of situation is always tricky and never ideal, it is a good example of where a zaxcom Tx system with remotely adjustable Tx preamp helps alot, When this is likely to happen I set my rec level on the Tx a good 5 or 10 dB lower and then bring up the trim on my Fusion for the ISO and mix level and I also ride my mix fader a bit hotter. Doing these things basically gives me a 3 stage rec level, so say my mix level went over, then my ISO would be around 6dB lower and the Tx rec would be at around 12 to 15 dB lower. As the system is all digital there is less to worry about regarding signal to noise regarding Tx modulation (as I far as I understand) It all sounds good to me! Also about to get the new zaxcom plug on Tx for my main wireless boom, this has a system called "never clip" and supposedly can handle about 130 dB of signal.

Other than that it's either a boom or 2 Tx's as suggested above, I've also rigged 2 mic's onto one boom before to cover the same kind of thing, worked well but a bit fiddly.

Bascially you can only do what the situation dictates and your gear is cabable of, once you're at those limits it's up to the dir/actor to help sort it or it goes to post. In these stituations also a good limiter is invaluable and will save a lot of the loud stuff. Andy B has a good point in watching the actor during the shot as after a few takes you should get used to a few body langauge signs or dialogue cues that indicate they're about to crank it.

Good luck - you need a bit of that too!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I were going for the 2 mic solution, I would lav for the low stuff and boom for the loud.

I had a situation like this about two months ago, and the boom completely saved us just in terms of dynamic range. I would've loved to have gone with the boom for 100% of the dialog, but the noisy location made that very difficult. For loud screaming... no problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whispering to shouting in a single take...

that is our job, and has been for a lot of years...

our technology has improved , allowing us more capabilities, but also often increasing our workloads...

and it still takes years of experience to get years of experience...

plus, sometimes there are unrealistic expectations, but remember it is the television and motion picture Arts and SCIENCES...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I seem to be getting this situation on a daily basis and I what I do is just use 1 mic but use two inputs on the desk via an Emo splitter box. Set the first channel gain to cope with the whispers and the second one for the shouting. Split the tracks to the recorder. On the quiet bits Trk. A will be ok but Trk B will be very low level. On the loud bits B will be good but A will be grossly over modded. IMHO this is the only way to deal with your situation also dialogue and gunfire.

Malcolm Davies. A.m.p.s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I seem to be getting this situation on a daily basis and I what I do is just use 1 mic but use two inputs on the desk via an Emo splitter box. Set the first channel gain to cope with the whispers and the second one for the shouting. Split the tracks to the recorder. On the quiet bits Trk. A will be ok but Trk B will be very low level. On the loud bits B will be good but A will be grossly over modded. IMHO this is the only way to deal with your situation also dialogue and gunfire.

Malcolm Davies. A.m.p.s.

I've done it this way many times on shots where I put the recorder in the trunk and let the actors drive off doing whatever they are going to do. Works well. Post has to mix it but they have the tracks to do so. I become a tracker not a mixer.

CrewC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This kind of situation is always tricky and never ideal, it is a good example of where a zaxcom Tx system with remotely adjustable Tx preamp helps alot, When this is likely to happen I set my rec level on the Tx a good 5 or 10 dB lower and then bring up the trim on my Fusion for the ISO and mix level and I also ride my mix fader a bit hotter. Doing these things basically gives me a 3 stage rec level, so say my mix level went over, then my ISO would be around 6dB lower and the Tx rec would be at around 12 to 15 dB lower. As the system is all digital there is less to worry about regarding signal to noise regarding Tx modulation (as I far as I understand) It all sounds good to me! Also about to get the new zaxcom plug on Tx for my main wireless boom, this has a system called "never clip" and supposedly can handle about 130 dB of signal.

Other than that it's either a boom or 2 Tx's as suggested above, I've also rigged 2 mic's onto one boom before to cover the same kind of thing, worked well but a bit fiddly.

Bascially you can only do what the situation dictates and your gear is cabable of, once you're at those limits it's up to the dir/actor to help sort it or it goes to post. In these stituations also a good limiter is invaluable and will save a lot of the loud stuff. Andy B has a good point in watching the actor during the shot as after a few takes you should get used to a few body langauge signs or dialogue cues that indicate they're about to crank it.

Good luck - you need a bit of that too!

+1

I've recently moved into using Zaxcom wireless, and on the film I'm on right now, I've had several scenes where the characters would go from quiet dialog, to full out screaming arguments (scripted that way). I watch the actors closely, and dial up their transmitters, turn down the gains quickly, and I've got clean lav and boom tracks for the whole scene with good levels. Post will have to do some extra mixing because I'm riding gains on the isos, but good room tone hopefully will help with that. Better to have clean tracks with gain changes than distortion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had a bit more of this than I would have liked on a pilot that I just finished. I found the feature on my new board, to flip the fader throw to allow for +24 dB, to help wonderfully. I was able to pull out the whispers with the fader and, for the most part, duck the overall mix in time to catch the screams. All without riding the trim. I would find it hard to go back to not having this option now

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been following the discussion of recording whispers and shouts in the same take with interest but also a little puzzlement. This is a common recording challenge that we all face. Maybe it's not a daily occurrence but sometimes it seems like every shot is all over the map in levels. With a radio mike I can see where using two rigs to handle the range might be useful but I've always been able to manage (at least I thought I was managing) with a single input when using a good boom mike.

It helps, of course, if one can anticipate the change and make a corresponding adjustment to the fader and/or channel gain. And a boom operator can be your friend by working as close as possible for the whisper and pulling back for some "air" on the shouting. (I generally request boom operators to limit their pull-back to only about one or two feet - otherwise there is a noticeable perspective change. But a little "air" can help tame a sudden change.)

About two years ago I made some tests of the (then new) Zaxcom 992 system for radio booming. It's a combination mike pre-amp and radio transmitter engineered specifically for cordless booming. Since controlling unpredictable shifts in level was an obvious need in the field, we paid particular attention to its performance in wide dynamic range situations. We had that challenge on a picture and also made some tests under controlled conditions. In controlled tests we (I had some volunteer assistants) whispered from a distance and yelled at the top of our voices. (Fortunately there were few neighbors around during the day or we might have had some 'splainen to do.) The Zaxcom system coped with the changes effortlessly. Using a tone generator and oscilloscope to measure headroom (but still a bit informally - I wouldn't want to defend every dB) we calculated 40 dB of clean signal above 0. That's a lot of range; when assisted by a good limiter, it's really a lot of range.

While the Zaxcom was an outstanding performer, I should also say that I experienced very similar results using a Lectro system that incorporated a Sound Devices MM-1 preamp. But the Zaxcom was a single item weighing 14.9 oz. while the Lectro-SD system was two items in a pouch with interconnect cable and weighed 37.4 oz.

Anyway, the range in professional equipment available today seems capable, in my experience, of handling a very broad range of levels. Simply set the gain for the shouting and push the level a bit for the whispers.

The test of the Zaxcom 992 system is available in the Winter 2010 issue of the 695 Quarterly which may be found here:

http://695quarterly.com/previous-issues/

David

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not for all situations, but there is also whispering and then there is whispering. A stage whisper can be delivered for effect but actor can be coached to keep some power behind it to help with levels.

Totally agree with this. Must use stage whisper, and when shouting must not 'overblow' it.

I consider it a directing problem. Would also consider booming it and pulling back a bit for the "louder-overblown" parts.

You just don't need this wide of a dynamic range... just the appearance.

+1

Tom and Angelo are dead on. Choose one of the many fine technical recommendations mentioned here ONLY after making an attempt to get the performances under control.

My "side job" is coaching actors and singers vocally. Knowing how to control your voice is something that every actor needs to know anyway. If they don't already, they might as well learn on the job.

The vocal techniques are fairly simple. The only difficult part is that you must have rock solid rapport between yourself, the director, and the actor. And of course, you obviously do have that rapport, since it's a fundamental, non-negotiable requirement of the production sound job. If you weren't capable of that type of rapport, you wouldn't be doing production sound, you'd be hiding behind a mixing board somewhere in some isolated studio.

I know. I know. Sometimes you HAVE to simply record whatever is thrown at you, but NEVER reach for a technical solution BEFORE you've reached for the performance solution and convinced yourself it can't work. This "performance before technology" rule applies regardless of whether your art is sound, music, sculpture, painting, theater, or performance art with dancing monkeys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sometimes you HAVE to simply record whatever is thrown at you, but NEVER reach for a technical solution BEFORE you've reached for the performance solution and convinced yourself it can't work. This "performance before technology" rule applies regardless of whether your art is sound, music, sculpture, painting, theater, or performance art with dancing monkeys.

Then you get a director who says, "but aren't you recording this in digital? Can't you handle the dynamic range?"

But I agree with you. There's whispering, and then there's whispering.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...