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Qualities of a production sound person


recroom

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Hey guys and gals,

I'm an audio-post mixer trying to sell newer, younger clients on the importance of hiring an experienced audio production mixer and/or boom op (which of course makes my job easier). I'm currently writing an article that lists the benefits and am looking for some input.

So my question is: How do you sell yourself to younger directors/producers that think that all they need is someone with a Zoom recorder and a pair of headphones in order to get proper audio on set?

Short, idiot-proof comments welcome.

Thanks.

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First concept that they should learn is bad sound costs lots of money, often much more money than hiring a production mixer in the first place. Make sure you are making enough cheddar in dealing with post fixes. I do some post myself and it can be a long arduous process that takes some specialized and expensive tools.

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First concept that they should learn is bad sound costs lots of money, often much more money than hiring a production mixer in the first place. Make sure you are making enough cheddar in dealing with post fixes. I do some post myself and it can be a long arduous process that takes some specialized and expensive tools.

Tom you make a very good point there, and one that we may have overlooked in discussions about why production sound rates are seemingly dropping. We base a lot of our arguments for rates on the fact that bad sound means exponentially higher costs in post. Yet what about the guys with an imac and protools in their bedrooms, willing to do post for low or no rates. They may not do a great job, but indie producers often don't care., so will get a guy with a zoom and a kid doing bedroom post to "fix" it....

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Hey guys and gals,

I'm an audio-post mixer trying to sell newer, younger clients on the importance of hiring an experienced audio production mixer and/or boom op (which of course makes my job easier). I'm currently writing an article that lists the benefits and am looking for some input.

So my question is: How do you sell yourself to younger directors/producers that think that all they need is someone with a Zoom recorder and a pair of headphones in order to get proper audio on set?

Short, idiot-proof comments welcome.

Thanks.

Before you go out to try and sell your professional services you need to understand that these younger wanna be directors/producers don't know enough to know that they don't know enough. The only way that they will ever understand that premise is through repeated failure. Letting them hear examples of good sound-vs-bad and how it will help to enhance their project might help to open their eyes/ears.

Eric

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+1 For everyone what everyone has said so far. I try letting them know that having the good tools and engineer on set can help them 'as they go' to avoid problems. I think in 'post modern' culture trying to show them having the on set relationship/communication is key. You want to let them know you want to help them communicate their story.

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Telling the young directors/producers they should hire a professional, experienced sound mixer is useless because they have absolutely no idea what or who a good sound mixer is. They think the guy who just graduated from film school and who worked on a few student films is experienced and professional. They'll pay him or her $75/day and that recent grad will take it for the experience and because it's better than sitting at home.

Best thing to do is let them fail time and again. They will eventually learn or they will be sifted out of the working professionals. You can guide a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Production Sound Mixing for Television, Films, and Commercials.

www.matthewfreed.com

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Thanks to everyone for the great feedback. I am ultimately concerned about the overall quality of clients' projects while bringing an overall bump in standards. I mix a lot of shows and I spend wayyyy too much time fixing dialog issues... time that could be better spent on sound design and getting the final mix just right. A lot of these are pretty big shows using substandard equipment and inexperienced production personnel.... which amazes me.

Here are some of the points I have made about the positives with using a PROFESSIONAL production sound mixer:

-Most professional production mixers have their own kit which is generally in better shape than your average rental kit. Plus the mixer knows the ins and out of the equipment better as he's been working with it for some time.

-Professional production sound mixers have encountered many different types of challenges when working in a variety of environments and have the expeirence to make adjustments to raise the overall quality of the project. EXAMPLE?

-As George Lucas said, "Sound is 50 percent of the movie". Wouldn't it be nice to have a qualified professional in charge of what is such an important aspect of your film?

Any other ideas?

Thanks!

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Telling the young directors/producers they should hire a professional, experienced sound mixer is useless because they have absolutely no idea what or who a good sound mixer is. They think the guy who just graduated from film school and who worked on a few student films is experienced and professional. They'll pay him or her $75/day and that recent grad will take it for the experience and because it's better than sitting at home.

Best thing to do is let them fail time and again. They will eventually learn or they will be sifted out of the working professionals. You can guide a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Production Sound Mixing for Television, Films, and Commercials.

www.matthewfreed.com

It may be a fultile pursuit on my part, but I refuse to "just let them fail and eventually they'll come around". We've all got to fight the good fight and as professionals it's important for us to resist the dreaded "downward spiral".

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There are many directors and producers who do care and are knowledgeable enough about sound to let an experienced professional handle it. But, there are a growing number of young hacks who fancy themself a director and they will learn...hopefully. Educating them is a good thing and needed.

How do they identify a good sound mixer? What should they be looking for and what questions should they be asking to make sure they are hiring a competent mixer and not just someone who owns a lot of gear? Thinking of it from the producers perspective...they don't know the difference between a 788t a Deva or a Behringer FireWire laptop interface. The director doesn't know why a Lectro SMQV or Zaxcom wireless is better than a Sony UWP wireless. The sound mixer said "I have 6 channels of wireless, a boom, and a recorder." Well...are those wireless good quality? Are they even working? Is the boom a Schoepps or a Sennheiser ME66? Is the mixer an antiquated, barely functioning Radio Shack POS or a modern, professional piece if gear?

An inexperienced director doesn't know the difference between good gear and bad gear or a good mixer or bad. They learn over time...and they learn from asking questions and listening to the answers.

Just like us, directors and producers learn by doing and the good ones learn from their mistakes.

Production Sound Mixing for Television, Films, and Commercials.

www.matthewfreed.com

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It's like many other "service businesses". An experienced professional can usually parse the job ahead of time, knows what the potential problems will be and is prepared for them, has the tools needed to do the job and then some, incl. backups; knows how to interact with other dept.s to move the job forward easily, is focussed and attentive to what's happening sonically on the set (and tries to deal with issues in a way that impacts other depts the least) and has the experience to deal with the unexpected, the accidental and the miraculous on the job without causing a loss of momentum. And the recorded tracks will sound better too.

phil p

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1) Garbage in garbage out. While a good post person might be able to make bad production sound "good enough", it'll never be good. And a good post person will cost a lot more in time than paying a little extra for an experienced production mixer.

2) Most small projects will be viewed on portable devices (laptops or iPads or iPhones) with headphones. The difference between "good" and "good enough" when listened to on headphones will be dramatic. It'll be way more noticeable than whether it's shot on a 5D or a RED or an Akexa.

Robert

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An inexperienced production sound department can hold up overall production by not being able to implement experience based decisions quickly and efficiently.

Those little delays can add up and start hindering production's ability to "make the day", compromising the integrity of the story due to dropped shots, or creating budget problems due to the necessity of adding days to principle photography or coming back later for re-shoots.

IMO, many inexperienced directors know little about sound in general, much less from a technical standpoint. By the time the sound team gets to the director he or she may be a bit too overwhelmed to wrap their head around the idea of production sound's importance at the technical level. They can however get their head around the idea of not making the day, dropping shots or whole scenes, going over budget, and what those things mean to the success of their current project and the future of their budding career.

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Sound is not intuitive.

You can look at a shot in your favorite movie and get a pretty good idea how it was composed and blocked. Then you can look through the viewfinder at your shoot, and see if you're getting the look you want.

Lighting is less intuitive - you can't look at a movie and immediately guess how it was lit - but you've still got that all-important viewfinder to warn you about mistakes.

And the physics of optics and light are pretty straight-forward... particularly for someone with the visual sense to want to make a movie.

But production sound? There's no way for even an audio professional to look at a finished film and know for sure how the dialog was done.

What the mic records is not the same as what your binaural brain tells you is going on in a room. And without experience, you can't even rely on headphones at the shoot to tell you what you'll get on living room or theater speakers.

Even in post, you can't just "tweak until it sounds good"... unless you know what you're listening for, turning a knob the wrong way can make things sound better in the edit and much worse in the mix. And there's a lot of myth and wishful thinking as to what post can actually accomplish.

Bottom line:

It's very easy to screw up sound. Unless dialog isn't at all important to your film, guesswork at the shoot will mean you have footage that's hard to understand at best, and at worst says "this producer didn't care at all about the project".

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" should learn is bad sound costs lots of money, "

but: " what about the guys with an imac and protools in their bedrooms, willing to do post for low or no rates. "

thus:

...should learn is that bad production sound costs a lot of time, effort, and money in post...

" I'm currently writing an article that lists the benefits and am looking for some input. "

jwsoundgroup.net is choc' full of research material, including lots of exemplary "war stories" (aka horror stories.) just looking at the thread titles should point you to more than enough.

" inexperienced director doesn't know the difference between good gear and bad gear "

perhaps this is putting more emphasis on the arrows than on the archer..??

I'd rather have someone with years of experience using G-2's, Azden shotgun, FP-33 and a Zoom, than a wannabe with big shiny new fancy kit...

" An inexperienced sound department can hold up production... "

It depends: if they are holding up production, at least maybe they are doing something, often it is the wanna' bee's (Directors, DP's, producers, etc) who dismiss any attempts to improve production sound, and often do it to the best of us, as anyone can read here frequently.

" They can however get their head around the idea of not making the day, dropping shots or whole scenes, going over budget, and what those things mean to the success of their current project and the future of their budding career. "

Sorry, but I don't think this applies to the target audience for the article(s)... not these wanna' bee's...they don't get it!

" using a PROFESSIONAL production sound mixer: "

using, and paying an EXPERIENCED, properly equipped professional production sound mixer:; and taking their advice.

That is probably your number one problem in post: "they" didn't do another take, "they" picked a terrible (not just bad, but really awful) location for sound, "they" didn't have the budget for needed equipment -they spent it all on a fancy (and often noisy) camera--, "they" didn't turn off the noise makers (not being able to goes back to the selection of location!)...

"they" didn't have a clue, and "they" didn't have a plan --and they stuck to it!

I spend a full term teaching my classes of wanna' bee directors what they need to know about sound, from some fundamentals, to specifically telling them that as the movie-makers, they need to know enough to find someone qualified, and pay attention to their advice. Most of all they need to be thinking of production sound with every step of their pre-production planning, and making decisions, yes "problem solving" and often compromising to the overall betterment of the project.

Oh, and for some further ideas for your articles, I suggest "Project Greenlight", particularly the first two "seasons".

I'd also suggest recommending Jay Rose's books at www.dplay.com

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I generally tell prospective clients (at least, in the event they're inexperienced), "a good chunk of my job is spent trying to save you money by getting the sound right in the first place." Some of that may involve using multiple microphones, specialty microphones (or creative placement), warning you if a location won't be suitable for reasonable dialog, and giving you several options (like wild lines) in instances where we know getting good dialog will be a challenge.

Having the experience to know where to put the microphone is a big part of it. Knowing how to tame difficult rooms is another. Carrying lots of backup gear on the truck is also a good reason to hire an experienced sound person. Saving time and money on location by solving sound problems and keeping the production moving forward is yet another.

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Tell hem that unless they hire a pro, then those perfect performances they spent so much time getting, will have to be most likely redone in ADR.

And they will NEVER be as good.

So, no matter how good a re-recording mixer they have in the end, they've already compromised the overal quality of the movie by trying to save what is an extremely insignificant amount of the overal budget

Ask them I they would hire a handyman from angies list to redesign their whole house, because he has a pirated copy of CAD 3D on his laptop.

Or would they hire an architect.

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