Need some advice. Noob to production mixing on indie set.

[bluemalice]

All the advice you were given (at least at the beginning of this thread) was not snarky nor mean-spirited. It was simply direct. If direct is not your cup of tea, why in the world would you ask these questions in a professional forum?

Just because an answer is direct and honest doesn't make it mean. However, if your response to directness is defensiveness, this definitely isn't the right forum for you. If you had bothered to research deeply into the archives for the thirty thousand times the same question has been asked you'd find that most here have been quite forthcoming with advice and have spent many hours of personal time helping people such as yourself. That is, until they become as defensive as you are now being.

The advice is there. It's all good. You say you've been learning, but I can tell you the best way to learn anything is to close one's mouth and open one's ears -- and drop the attitude.

If all you want is to know how to hook something up, then why bother to tell us how great the DP is and how awesome this is going to look? The answer to how to hook it up, is to buy from a professional sound dealer and work with them. That's already been noted several times in some of the answers you ignored. You don't have a dealer near you? I don't have one near me either, but they all have telephones.

Plus, your heading wasn't accurate. It should have read, "Noob with an attitude needs advice."

Good luck.

The advice that was given to me was the typical, uppity, long-time forum user's, bitter responses. This happens on every forum all over the internet. I run a couple of forums on specific topics myself and see this all the time.

The advice that was given to me was basically stuff I was already doing and not what I asked. If a person can't respond to what another person is actually saying, why respond?

Here's what you said in your first response.

"What AFMY said.

This comes up often from newcomers who typically seem to think that if they have the proper gear, they'll somehow, magically, become proficient at location sound."

The first response by AFMY set the tone and it was snarky and assuming. You agreed with that and then compared me to newcomers who think if they have gear they'll magically become proficient, thus insulting my intelligence and assuming things yourself. So you added the same sentiment that AFMY added and then that asshole troll guy followed it up too. Makes this forum look pretty bad really.

[thebrengun]

I think a battery distribution system, while convenient, is a misallocation of funds. Eneloops are great for low power draw applications (I use them in slates, sync boxes, etc.) but PowerEx batteries are much better for high draw applications. You could likely run a 302, some Sennheiser G3s, and the Zoom all day and only change batteries once (lunchtime is good for this). Then you could put the savings towards microphones that will improve the quality of your finished product (replacing the stock Sennheiser G3 ME2 lav with Sanken COS11s or Countryman B6s, for example).

As for file management, pen and paper (or an iPad or iPhone), is often the quickest and most efficient way to keep track of things. Another thing that will really help is proper slate procedure. You can use the slate mic on the 302 to make a verbal note at the top of each file. Remember that not so long ago there weren't any files at all! I don't see how timecode would be more useful than some attentive note-keeping.

[afewmoreyears]

The advice that was given to me was the typical, uppity, long-time forum user's, bitter responses. This happens on every forum all over the internet. I run a couple of forums on specific topics myself and see this all the time.

The advice that was given to me was basically stuff I was already doing and not what I asked. If a person can't respond to what another person is actually saying, why respond?

"What AFMY said.

This comes up often from newcomers who typically seem to think that if they have the proper gear, they'll somehow, magically, become proficient at location sound."

The first response by AFMY set the tone and it was snarky and assuming. You agreed with that and then compared me to newcomers who think if they have gear they'll magically become proficient, thus insulting my intelligence and assuming things yourself. So you added the same sentiment that AFMY added and then that asshole troll guy followed it up too. Makes this forum look pretty bad really.

BM,

Stop being so angry and take a breath...

Call the resources I gave you and they will both provide you with the exact info you need and sell you right then and there the cables and items you need to answer your questions.... They are there for that exact reason....

The tone was not snarky... it is printed internet forum communication.... you are being way to defensive.... relax.... if you can't handle this, you will never survive on an ACTUAL motion picture set.... BREATH>...

[Michael Miramontes]

First, chill the hell out! The reason why you were initially met with criticism was because we hear this stuff all the time on this board. Someone joins just to ask a couple of questions then they bounce when they are told to look it up themselves. It's not that people are trying to be rude its just that your questions are so basic that any reasonable searching would yield answers or you can call one of the pro shops and get the info you need. I understand that you didn't appreciate some of the responses that were given however if you want to continue receiving help then you need to grow thick skin and stop attacking other members. You can choose to ignore them or continue to fight an uphill battle.

You just called one of my brothers a troll however your next three posts are attacks. Again, chill the hello out and make some phone calls. I'm sure you will get the answers you need as quickly as you expect them. Good luck.

[Henchman]

You actually pointed out your sound problem without realizing it.

You say the video looks amazing. You know why?

Because you have an experienced person handling the camera.

Your sound is crap, because you didn't allow the same for the audio.

Until you figure out, and learn how to record your audio properly, I strongly suggest you don't

Even bother trying to make a feature.

We won't even go into the audio-post portion.

Keep in mind, going to Guitar Center an dropping $10k on an amazing guitar setup, will not make you a great guitar player overnight.

Practice, practice and practice will. Maybe.

Same goes for this.

I not think anybody here cares wether you are doing this to make money or not. It's simply a skillset you will have to learn. Since you are familiar with recoding, it will most likely go a lot faster, than sowmen with zero experience with audio.

Keep in mind, when it comes to audio-post, mixing music and mixing post are miles apart. I know, I used to be an engineer/producer before I moved into audio post.

[Tim M]

BlueMalice BTW you started out as a Newbie on this forum, now from this post you have two dots under your name, you are officially a member now. Welcome. What is it you wanted to ask again?

[afewmoreyears]

Maybe Jeff should re think the dot thing LOL.....

[atheisticmystic]

I live on this particular bridge.

Asshole? Maybe.

Troll? Naaah.

[RPSharman]

I'd like to point out that the OP considers being the videographer for the Mavericks qualifies his DP to shoot a narrative feature.

My advice is this, why waste $X on a hobby with no chance of creating something of quality, when you can spend money hiring some pros and invest in something you can be proud of with the potential of future profit?

And after hiring a pro a few times, you might gather some very valuable knowledge.

Robert

[graham]

My question is, what cabling do I need to hook all of this up in the bag? I'm not 100% sure how (or what the conventions are for connections) to hook up the battery packs with everything that will be in the bag and what kind of cables I need. I'm trying to put together a complete, all in one kit for our needs. We already have a decent Rode shotgun mic that we liked the sound of outside. I will order 2 LP-1 style batteries to start.

Should I use the Zoom H4N just as the recorder for now or should I go ahead and invest in something else for that purpose that works better with this setup since I will already have a mixer?

What am I missing?

Wes

For power cables specs for the bds, read their website http://www.remoteaudio.com/bds_v4/

Check the zoom specs to make sure it can handle the voltage from the battery.

Stick with the zoom? Are you getting what you need with it? If yes, stick with it. If not, determine what's missing for you and your post workflow and find a recorder that would satisfy those needs.

What are you missing? It depends on your needs.

If it was my project, I would forgo buying the equipment and hire someone who has experience. I've been in bands and have recorded in studios. They are 2 different worlds with different skill sets.

[Henchman]

I'd like to point out that the OP considers being the videographer for the Mavericks qualifies his DP to shoot a narrative feature.

My advice is this, why waste $X on a hobby with no chance of creating something of quality, when you can spend money hiring some pros and invest in something you can be proud of with the potential of future profit?

And after hiring a pro a few times, you might gather some very valuable knowledge.

Robert

I totally agree.

I myself, after having been mixing post for a couple of years, waste amed up with an experienced dialog mixer when I started at a new studio. I learned so much by observing him, in the first couple of mixes, than I could have ever learned on my own.

He should try and hire someone here for a couple of days shooting, and really watch and learn. It would be money well spent. And will save piles of kent down the line, by not having to do a ton of ADR and sound fixes.

[Tim M]

Man I love this posting and Senator HASN'T EVEN POSTED YET. Drop it like its hot.

[atheisticmystic]

Man I love this posting and Senator HASN'T EVEN POSTED YET. Drop it like its hot.

You're awesome Tim.

[taylormadeaudio]

Greetings Mr. Malice,

I'll start by "apologizing" for the fact that most of the replies here are probably not what you may have expected... but please try to understand that because you've navigated to this site which is frequented by serious professionals, those responses are pretty much par for the course -- and a difficult course it is (as you may have figured out by now.)

It's hard for professionals in any given field (but especially one as specialized and competitive as location sound acquisition) to offer "advice" to someone who shares so few common denominators. Your request is akin, in a way, to asking a magician to reveal his/her secrets. This is not to say that the fine members here on JWSound are afraid of "training their replacements" per se -- perhaps just consider it a sort of venting. Your requests are neither unreasonable, nor are they necessarily naive in the grand scheme of things. Please bear with us and continue to maintain as much diplomacy

and good will as you're able.

Now to the specifics of your query:

Personally, I (and probably most others here) would not even really know where to start without giving your questions some serious thought. One often doesn't realize how much he/she actually knows until presented with the difficult task of trying to convey that knowledge (especially a concise/condensed version thereof) to someone who by comparison knows virtually nothing (beyond the bit of research you've already done.)

There's an entire foundation of knowledge and experience necessary to even grasp some of the concepts at which you're digging.

That said, there is one piece of advice I can definitely offer:

Make sure the boom mic (regardless of brand/model) is in the right place.

You can get great, useable dialog (this is your primary concern) with an AudioTechnica and an H4N... and line it up using any one of a number of reasonably-priced applications and/or plug-ins such as Pluraleyes or Vocalign -- as long as your tracks are clean, consistent, and free of as many unwanted sounds and background noises as possible.

Conversely, you can run a $2k+ Schoeps through a wonderfully transparent Cooper or Sonosax board, into any number of recorders made by Sound Devices, Zaxcom, etc... and still have shitty, unusable production dialog tracks. The gear is (almost) irrelavent -- especially at the level at which you intend to operate.

There are so many variables, it's hard to decide where to begin -- hence the aforementioned phrase, "it takes years of experience to gain years of experience."

As to the physical connections required to make everything "play together" nicely... that should become fairly apparent as you put it all together -- and as advised above: purchasing your gear through a specialized dealer (the "usual suspects" listed above) will put you in communication with a knowledgeable salesperson who can help you get there.

In any case, I hope this helps... and the best of luck to you in your new-found "sonic endeavors"... you've jumped into some complicated waters, but you seem intelligent enough to navigate through with sufficient success. Please don't be discouraged into not asking questions -- just be ready for the range of responses you'll garnish... and remember -- no one's gonna get shot or die on the operating table if you fuck up... so you got that going for you ; )

~tt

[Alexander Burstein]

There are plenty of productions going on in Texas. If you want to learn, then start by shadowing professionals. I personally took a similar route to yours and just bought a mixer/recorder and worked with friends. The reason it worked for me so well was because I took about a year learning to utility and boom operate prior to my purchase. That got me acclimated with the lingo, technical skills, and set etiquette.

Save that money and continue to learn. If you really want to do it right, hire a professional and stay by their side on set. Books and theory will only get you so far. You'll need to practice and mess up quite a few times to really be able to record quality audio.

[bluemalice]

I'm still seeing a lot of responses that treat this like we think we're going to make some awesome, pro-level production here because we're all dilusional about our capabilities lol...

WE ARE ALL NOOBS ON THIS PRODUCTION. The camera guy IS very good. He is NOT experienced with film. I've said this... We already know this. We are basically a group of people, some with experience, some with none, doing something fun and WE think it has value. I'm sorry if you think that amateurs can't create anything of value, but you would be wrong in that assumption.

When we're done with the first episode, I'll post it here so you can all talk about how bad it is. lol...

Anyway, based on the few tidbits of advice I did get from a few nice folks here, I placed an order with Trew Audio for the following setup.

SD302

PSC 3ft-12ft4in Boom pole with Right angle XLR end cap

AKG CK93 w/Se300B pre-amp module

Ryco Inv7 shockmount

Coiled Boom jumper cable

2 Sennheiser G3's (not upgrading the mics yet)

Tascam HDp2

BDSv4u

2-np1's with cradle, charger etc..

2 wireless battery eliminators for the g3's

a petrol pack with harness

Sony MDR-7506

And all the cabling required.

Thanks again for suggesting Trew Audio. The sales guy on the phone was awesome.

[Michael Miramontes]

I'm not so sure Mr. Malice has the time to shadow anyone. I believe his production has already started and he needs answers now.

[atheisticmystic]

Anyway, based on the few tidbits of advice I did get from a few nice folks here, I placed an order with Trew Audio for the following setup.

It's not about the arrows, it's about the Archer.

(PS...Cha-ching!)

I'm not so sure Mr. Malice has the time to shadow anyone.

Michael, I had no idea you were such a poetic writer...that's a beautiful line!

[bluemalice]

I'm not so sure Mr. Malice has the time to shadow anyone. I believe his production has already started and he needs answers now.

That is very true sir. That and the fact that I work 40 hours a week and take care of my disabled father who technically needs 24/7 care at the same time.

I'm pretty good at learning and adapting and I'm confident that having the equipment, reading some books and eventually hob-knobbing with a few guys that know some audio will get me as far as I care to go with this.

Greetings Mr. Malice,

I'll start by "apologizing" for the fact that most of the replies here are probably not what you may have expected... but please try to understand that because you've navigated to this site which is frequented by serious professionals, those responses are pretty much par for the course -- and a difficult course it is (as you may have figured out by now.)

It's hard for professionals in any given field (but especially one as specialized and competitive as location sound acquisition) to offer "advice" to someone who shares so few common denominators. Your request is akin, in a way, to asking a magician to reveal his/her secrets. This is not to say that the fine members here on JWSound are afraid of "training their replacements" per se -- perhaps just consider it a sort of venting. Your requests are neither unreasonable, nor are they necessarily naive in the grand scheme of things. Please bear with us and continue to maintain as much diplomacy

and good will as you're able.

Now to the specifics of your query:

Personally, I (and probably most others here) would not even really know where to start without giving your questions some serious thought. One often doesn't realize how much he/she actually knows until presented with the difficult task of trying to convey that knowledge (especially a concise/condensed version thereof) to someone who by comparison knows virtually nothing (beyond the bit of research you've already done.)

There's an entire foundation of knowledge and experience necessary to even grasp some of the concepts at which you're digging.

That said, there is one piece of advice I can definitely offer:

Make sure the boom mic (regardless of brand/model) is in the right place.

You can get great, useable dialog (this is your primary concern) with an AudioTechnica and an H4N... and line it up using any one of a number of reasonably-priced applications and/or plug-ins such as Pluraleyes or Vocalign -- as long as your tracks are clean, consistent, and free of as many unwanted sounds and background noises as possible.

Conversely, you can run a $2k+ Schoeps through a wonderfully transparent Cooper or Sonosax board, into any number of recorders made by Sound Devices, Zaxcom, etc... and still have shitty, unusable production dialog tracks. The gear is (almost) irrelavent -- especially at the level at which you intend to operate.

There are so many variables, it's hard to decide where to begin -- hence the aforementioned phrase, "it takes years of experience to gain years of experience."

As to the physical connections required to make everything "play together" nicely... that should become fairly apparent as you put it all together -- and as advised above: purchasing your gear through a specialized dealer (the "usual suspects" listed above) will put you in communication with a knowledgeable salesperson who can help you get there.

In any case, I hope this helps... and the best of luck to you in your new-found "sonic endeavors"... you've jumped into some complicated waters, but you seem intelligent enough to navigate through with sufficient success. Please don't be discouraged into not asking questions -- just be ready for the range of responses you'll garnish... and remember -- no one's gonna get shot or die on the operating table if you fuck up... so you got that going for you ; )

~tt

I just wanted to say thank you for the well written post. I appreciate you taking the time to do that.

[John Blankenship]

So, I have to admit to being confused.

What I'm understanding you to say now is that the only thing you asked is how to hook up a BDS to a 302 and a Zoom.

If that's the case, why the long dissertation about what you're doing and your plans for the future and how great the picture is, etc.?

You see, to those of us responding, it appeared you were opening a discussion about sound quality for a beginning project and how that can be improved as you evolve to doing a feature. That seems a natural assumption given all the glorious detail you went into. So, right before the question at the end of your long, detailed post, why didn't you just say "Please ignore the preceding, I just wanted to talk about myself," and then ask your question? That would have created much less misunderstanding.

So, now that you've clarified what you wanted to know, why all the angst? Your question was answered in the first post I made which you finally followed up on.

I see why you've been met with such negative responses in all the forums you've been on.

From Wikipedia: TROLL -- an internet term for a person who, through willful action, attempts to disrupt a community or garner attention and controversy through provocative messages. Hmmm.

[Philip Perkins]

I'm still seeing a lot of responses that treat this like we think we're going to make some awesome, pro-level production here because we're all dilusional about our capabilities lol...

WE ARE ALL NOOBS ON THIS PRODUCTION. The camera guy IS very good. He is NOT experienced with film. I've said this... We already know this. We are basically a group of people, some with experience, some with none, doing something fun and WE think it has value. I'm sorry if you think that amateurs can't create anything of value, but you would be wrong in that assumption.

When we're done with the first episode, I'll post it here so you can all talk about how bad it is. lol...

Anyway, based on the few tidbits of advice I did get from a few nice folks here, I placed an order with Trew Audio for the following setup.

SD302

PSC 3ft-12ft4in Boom pole with Right angle XLR end cap

AKG CK93 w/Se300B pre-amp module

Ryco Inv7 shockmount

Coiled Boom jumper cable

2 Sennheiser G3's (not upgrading the mics yet)

Tascam HDp2

BDSv4u

2-np1's with cradle, charger etc..

2 wireless battery eliminators for the g3's

a petrol pack with harness

Sony MDR-7506

And all the cabling required.

Thanks again for suggesting Trew Audio. The sales guy on the phone was awesome.

I think that's a great list, and all that stuff can be easily sold if and when you decide to move up. It looks like you'll be using a traditional clap slate (I hope) since no TC slate is listed--nothing wrong with that if your posties are down with syncing by eye/ear. The HDP2 does not have a very stable clock, but your DSLR won't let you make a take longer than 12 min (5D mk2) or 30 min (Mk3) so that will be ok (eventually you may want to get a Denecke SB2 or 3 to drive the HDP2--then you will have a stable clock). Otherwise, spend some time LISTENING to what your gear does--do lots of recording around the house, scream at it, whisper at it, experiment with the config, treat it like its all your instrument, and you plan to be sitting in with some very hot players.

phil p

[bluemalice]

Not exactly. I always feel like background is needed to understand exactly what's going on. I was giving background and asking questions offering up myself to be corrected on what I was wanting to use or any advice about any of the equipment.

[bluemalice]

I think that's a great list, and all that stuff can be easily sold if and when you decide to move up. It looks like you'll be using a traditional clap slate (I hope) since no TC slate is listed--nothing wrong with that if your posties are down with syncing by eye/ear. The HDP2 does not have a very stable clock, but your DSLR won't let you make a take longer than 12 min (5D mk2) or 30 min (Mk3) so that will be ok (eventually you may want to get a Denecke SB2 or 3 to drive the HDP2--then you will have a stable clock). Otherwise, spend some time LISTENING to what your gear does--do lots of recording around the house, scream at it, whisper at it, experiment with the config, treat it like its all your instrument, and you plan to be sitting in with some very hot players.

phil p

Yeah the sales guy told me that about the tascam but they had a used one for 500 and I offered the guy 400 and he took it. Also the Zoom H4n is a 250-300 dollar piece and would have required a $100+ cable to power it with the batt dist system so I opted for the Tascam. Also the Tascam will sit in the bag correctly instead of fiddling with the H4N constantly.

I'm looking forward to seeing what we can get out of this setup through some trial and error and hopefully on our NEXT project, I'll be just a little more prepared and know a tad more.

[Alexander Burstein]

I'm not so sure Mr. Malice has the time to shadow anyone. I believe his production has already started and he needs answers now.

In the future then! He did say he wanted to do this as a hobby. It might be too wishful for me to think he could find/hire a decent boom op or mixer who'll help him with all the new toys he purchased. Him doing everything solo might be a lot for him to handle. Especially with this firey temper. (It's a good thing malice. You're just passionate about doing things well)

[bluemalice]

In the future then! He did say he wanted to do this as a hobby. It might be too wishful for me to think he could find/hire a decent boom op or mixer who'll help him with all the new toys he purchased. Him doing everything solo might be a lot for him to handle. Especially with this firey temper. (It's a good thing malice. You're just passionate about doing things well)

Yeah I hope to be able to meet some local guys that do audio stuff and learn more about it from the horse's mouth. I'm 'mostly just fiery when I know people are doing a LOT of assuming about what I'm saying instead of actually conversing. It's irritating to be told a hundred times in a row by random people on the internet, something you already know and didn't ask to be told again.

Our project with this video is a means to get to another project that is only slightly related to this. I can't reveal what that is though because to my knowledge, it's never been done before.