Need advise on Omni's for general use - if you could only buy one pair....

[Tom Visser]

I don't think omni in AB is the end all be all, though, although probably the first choice for large orchestral in a good sounding hall. For more intimate ensembles or chamber, I may opt to go with ORTF cardioids as the main pair. To recover some of the low end, I may try to place an additional pair of omnis LPF'd to mix in if necessary. A hyper spot for soloist or center reinforcement as needed too. Sure, suddenly the equation gets a lot more complicated and introduces opportunities for problems, the reason that AB is a safer and often times better sounding approach.

[Brian Liston]

Is anything the end-all, be-all? But yeah, it takes more work to get a phase coherent picture going with spaced. That's where having a truck or somewhere other than headphones in a bag is so important to me.

Starting with a 3:1 spacing ratio is the best way to start however. The classical guys love it when they see you bust our a tape measure. They don't know why you are doing it, but it makes it look like you care more. Then, using a pencil or a calculator will seal the deal.

I don't think omni in AB is the end all be all, though, although probably the first choice for large orchestral in a good sounding hall. For more intimate ensembles or chamber, I may opt to go with ORTF cardioids as the main pair. To recover some of the low end, I may try to place an additional pair of omnis LPF'd to mix in if necessary. A hyper spot for soloist or center reinforcement as needed too. Sure, suddenly the equation gets a lot more complicated and introduces opportunities for problems, the reason that AB is a safer and often times better sounding approach.

[jrd456]

When I worked on recordings for Deutsche Grammophon recordings in the late 60's, we used two stacked directional Neumanns. I would think two mics. spaced far apart would cause acoustical phasing.I know about the lack of colorization of omni's.......I guess things have changed.

J.D.

[OmahaAudio]

When I worked on recordings for Deutsche Grammophon recordings in the late 60's, we used two stacked directional Neumanns.

[Vincent R.]

ahahaha

[jrd456]

X-Y stereo recording was used a lot 40 years ago for orchestral recording.For sweetening sessions I did individual micing of sections.

What is funny?

J.D.

[engaudio]

JD,

No disrespect intended in my earlier post.

I listened to a lot of DG recordings In my late teens and was always impressed with the quality of the audio. No doubt

You had a hand in some of them!

Grant.

(null)

[AB]

Omnis are great. Also there are wide cardioids which I am really loving (Have a pair of DPA 4015a mics).

Anyway - if money is a problem - the Sennheiser 8020 matched pair is very good and about $2300.

The DPA is awesome for super clarity - almost no coloration - but I would get the 4006a (make sure there is an "a" at the end) - because it will allow you to just buy capsules of cardioid, wide, etc. later. - cost - about $3900 for 4006a set.

Schoeps are great - a little more color than the DPAS - but lots of people love them. - I believe closer to about $3400 for a set. If you go Schoeps call Craig at calistromusic.com

Best to you,

AB

[AB]

Also - check out gearslutz.com for this type of question. A lot of people are loving the new MK22 capsule (between cardioid and wide cardioid) on the Schoeps. I would love those for instruments.

And I forgot to mention, as a lot of these guys know on this forum, if you go with the Sennheiser 8020 omnis - it will be better in humid nature settings, and of course, it is a less costly mic.

[jrd456]

JD,

No disrespect intended in my earlier post.

I listened to a lot of DG recordings In my late teens and was always impressed with the quality of the audio. No doubt

You had a hand in some of them!

Grant.

(null)

Only worked on one.I was helping my mentor who had done several recordings for them.It was the only time I worked on a live orchestral recording.Shortly after this I did mostly studio work-----40 yrs ago.

J.D.

[DonSpaulding]

To the OP. I would look into Schoeps MK21 wide cardioid stereo set. A little more versitile than omis. Depending on the room or hall, there are many situations where you will not want to use omnis. The DPA is clinicly accurate and not as forgiving as the Schoeps. Unless you are recording only top notch professional ensembles, I would go with Schoeps.

[Stef Albertyn]

Thank you for the input everyone!

I have basically decided to get the Schoeps MK21 or MK2S - but I might have an opportunity to try out an ortf Schoeps setup as well next week.

Thanks - I gained some valuable info from this!

[Stef Albertyn]

Having a CMIT myself, I want to hear some M/S recordings with the CCM8.

Brian - I am getting the extras to make up a double ms set - but I will gladly send you some samples of an A/B test that I am planning for next week Sunday with a friend of minewho runs a MKH60 and MKH20 ms set.

[ramallo]

X-Y stereo recording was used a lot 40 years ago for orchestral recording.For sweetening sessions I did individual micing of sections.

What is funny?

J.D.

XY is the best technique if you have planned use spot mics (For soloist or sections) and align them to the main pair. Because is a coincident technique (One point for align).

One of the reason of the AB techniques are because the omni mics are far better than his directional cousins.

[Jaymz]

Recorded this last year. Schoeps MK21 pair in a sort of hybrid A-B / ORTF setup straight into a 744t.

Solo Piano pieces in the second half is MK2S A-B, far end of piano with the MK21 pair against the stage wall, high up.

Interviews, MKH8060.

https://vimeo.com/29926788

Final mix has no EQ and a very small amount of compression.

[DonSpaulding]

XY is the best technique if you have planned use spot mics (For soloist or sections) and align them to the main pair. Because is a coincident technique (One point for align).

One of the reason of the AB techniques are because the omni mics are far better than his directional cousins.

Omnis have the least colored off axis sound compared to other patterns. Omnis and ORTF sound wonderful with spots (especially when the spots are mk21) placed and mixed correctly. I do not know of any classical engineers that use XY for a main pair.

[ramallo]

Omnis have the least colored off axis sound compared to other patterns. Omnis and ORTF sound wonderful with spots (especially when the spots are mk21) placed and mixed correctly. I do not know of any classical engineers that use XY for a main pair.

Is near to impossible do a "time alignment" spots (with the principal pair) without a coincident technique, XY or MS, because you need a single point for optain the delay of the different spots. This is an aproach for the common problem of phase anomalies (Comb filters) in multi-microphone techniques.

Also, the omnis are least colored in "on axis", because don't have the proximity effect (The flattest directional are flat only at one specific distance), and the cancellation circuit of the directional mics isn't lineal.

[Marc Wielage]

No I did not take the Protools course - I have been using it since 1992 (V1.01) and Soundtools and Qsheet AV before then...

Wow, Soundtools! I haven't thought of that in years. Only the real old farts remember Soundtools (pre-Pro Tools!).

I also like the idea of wide cardioids rather than spaced omnis.

[Alan H. Chang]

Hands down MK21 to fill in most or all of those positions.

1.) Atmosphere and Nature.

The wider you go, the more stereophonic it'll get. Although the MK21 isn't exactly ruler flat down to 10-20Hz, you'll still get that open omni'ish capture with the pair in wide AB 6'-12'.

2.) Acoustic Instruments

With cardioids you'll get proximity, and with a regular omni such as the MK2 you need to get up close to your instrument. Also, depending on the instrument, arrangement, and space you're planning on recording, you'll have to compromise on selecting between the two types of polar pattern for the job. With a Wide Cardioid MK21 or even the newer Open Cardioid MK22, you sort of get a mix of both worlds.

3.) Choirs and Orchestras

Pair of MK21 in a wide ORTF or AB as your main pair, or go straight with a 3x MK21 Decca Tree config. Just delicious! You'll see scoring mixers oftentimes selecting the MK21 as a section spot mic for the openness and directivity that's needed to bring up the details in a score.

4.) Organ

Pair of MK21 or MK2H if the venue's acoustic is wonderful.

5.) Brass Ensemble

Pair of MK21 for section spot or main, or even the MK4 but you'll want some openness from the whole ensemble. ORTF MK4 or wide ORTF MK21. Sometimes you'll want to use some dynamic mics here such as MD421 or ribbons such as Royer 121.

6.) Brass quintet

Smaller sport with a single MK21 will do wonders.

7.) Chamber Strings

I would lean heavily towards a MK2H or a MK2, but the MK21 will get the job done.

Since you already have a CMIT/CCM8 kit, you could always swap out the CMIT for the MK21 for a sweet open MS recording kit. Whenever I'm unsure about the type of scenarios on a production or recording FX with focus I would simply bring the CMIT/MK8 kit, but when I know there are lots of AMB to record in a small package I'll string along a MK21/MK8 kit or a pair of DPA4060 in Rycote.

Here's a picture from today's rehearsal recording. If you have been to the NASA Ames Exploration Center here in Northern California, you'll know for a fact that the acoustics are somewhat horrendous due to air ducts, HVAC, 3-4 airports nearby, and the heaviest interestate (US101) a mere 1000' away. The pair of mics you see behind our fabulous conductor were MK21. It's very forgiving considering there's also this curvilinear wall behind the mics that acts as a large 'dish'. The RT60 time was about 3.6 seconds! Tried a MK8 Blumlein, AB MK2, ORTF MK4 sounds too dry, nothing pleasing.

[Stef Albertyn]

Alan - Wow!

Thank you for your time and also for parting with your knowledge so freely!

I am now shopping for a MK21 and cmc6!

Thanks also to everyone else (Jaymz !) for piping in - I have learned a great deal from this!!