New computer for Metacorder or Boom Recorder

[Philip Perkins]

I'm still using a G4 1.5gb Powerbook as my MC/BR computer, but would like to move up to a newer Mac for this and other location audio tasks.  What does having a MacBook Pro buy me re: Metacorder (and BR and Audacity etc) vs. a regular MacBook?  Where does the Mini fit into this scheme?  When I started w/ MC everyone seemed to be using laptops, is that still true or has the Mini become more of a fave for cart-based recording?

Also--what's the upgrade I'd need to be able to go from my old G4 version of MC to the MacIntel version?  I'm still using v. 1.2 something from last year--seems fine and stable on the G4, but I understand there was a rewrite for MacIntel?  If I upgrade (my dongle, I guess) to the new version will I still be able to run the old verion of MC on the G4 if I need to?

thanks

Philip Perkins

[Jeff Wexler]

What does having a MacBook Pro buy me re: Metacorder (and BR and Audacity etc) vs. a regular MacBook?  Where does the Mini fit into this scheme?  When I started w/ MC everyone seemed to be using laptops, is that still true or has the Mini become more of a fave for cart-based recording?

Philip Perkins

There are lots of reasons people decide to go one way or the other, laptop portable or Mac Mini, on the sound cart. I think if you are happy with the way you have been able to use a laptop on your sound cart, that is the way you should continue. Some people made the decision based on not wanting to use their personal laptop on the cart during the day and then take it home at night (and most do not want to buy 2 laptops); for Windows users wanting to run Metacorder or BoomRecorder (both Mac only apps) the Mini made sense because it would be their first Mac. I think there are still others who like the idea of a built in cart computer and this is where the Mini makes sense (although you have to of course add a keyboard and monitor but you have more options than you do with a laptop).

As far as actual real world functionality, either will do just fine (and the MacBook will do just fine over the MacBook Pro). For me personally, the biggest obstacle has been how to integrate a laptop into my vertical cart in a manner that I like. I do like the inherent advantage of a laptop (no special powering problems, screen, keyboard and trackpad built in, etc.) but I just can't figure a way to really integrate it into my cart.

Dollar for dollar I think you are looking at about the same money with a MacBook vs. a Mini (with all the things you will need to add for the Mini to work properly), so I think things are tipped in favor of the laptop.

I don't know if you are already a veteran Mac user and would be getting one or more new Macs anyway, but this is always a factor if you are wanting a new purchase to serve several needs.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

[Noiz2]

Can't speak to Metacorder, but the current version of Boom Recorder works great on Intel Macs.  I haven't used BR on a G4 so?  But on a first generation Macbook Pro (no FW 800 and core duo rater than Core 2Duo CPUs) I did a test and could record 64 files to a bus powered USB2 drive with out problems or drop outs (that's sort of redundant isn't it).  I did 10-15 min trial takes.  There was a poss I was going to need to record 32 tracks and I wanted to make sure I had some cush.  You can get an express card and drive an ESATA drive directly which may get even better performance.

THe Mini's are slated to be discontinued I believe, they were talking about it anyway so that might not be an option.  The newer Macs have a lot more power in the USB port.  I have a number of things that can't bus power off my G4 (desktop) that work fine with the MBP.  THe power connector is much better now.  You can run the latest FCS if that's of interest.  Anything that uses CPU power (sound apps that are using VST, PTle, any video proscessing, etc).  A true second monitor port (though the G4 PB might already have that, my old G3 PB was single monitor and plugging external turned off the display).

Don't know if that's enough to switch.  The old G4 PB are pretty solid so?

[Philip Perkins]

Thanks dudes.  I've been using Macs since the MacPlus, mostly as personal/office/music etc machines, and although I mostly use PCs for heavy audio post now the current G4 laptop was bought and fitted out as a machine to be used exclusively for audio  (ok, I web surf with it when on stages).  The G4 has been fine for recording etc, has the usual powering and screen visibility issues when on location etc..  I've done 24 tracks or so with it but it is really sweating at that point, and even @ 16 tracks (Metacorder) the audio is fine but the display is scary and I can't run more than one external drive.  Being able to run FCS would be a plus too, if only to deal w/ wonky QTs for post, as well as to be an extra PT machine.  If the Macbook will do the job (vs. Pro) then that's what I'll do. 

A few more questions:

--how has the "glossy" screen been on location?  better or worse than a matte screen?

--2GB memory--enough?

--battery life vs G4 laptops?

I was watching a scripty friend of mine w/ current MacBook grabbing live video thumbnails and TC on stage yesterday, and the video in her pix window looked smooth and unjerky, and her setup uses Word macros, so that famous hog was running too.  Pretty cool. 

I agree that there is a sort of fundamental incompatibility laptop vs sound cart, requiring some very creative machining, or, in my case, a bigger cart.  I hope that Apple doesn't ditch the Mini or at least keeps making something like it since on my NEXT cart (whenever) I'd like to have a permanent

cart-puter, esp as our work becomes more and more computerized.

BR works fine on my G4 laptop, w/ the same track limitations as w/ MC.

Philip Perkins

[RPSharman]

I can only speak for the matte screen, but even with that there are visibility issues due to reflection and lack of brightness in strong daylight.  I keep a piece of duvetine over the keyboard of my white iBook.  It serves as a dust cover and eliminates reflections from the keyboard.  My laptop is above eye level, so with the screen tilted down, the keyboard reflection was a big issue.  The new MacBook has a brighter screen and is available in black, so maybe good to do that.

Robert

[Jeff Wexler]

The new MacBook has a brighter screen and is available in black, so maybe good to do that.

Robert

Be advised that the MacBook comes ONLY with glossy screen. MacBook Pro can be ordered with glossy or matte. I have not had much experience with the glossy screen other than the screen on the new iMac we put in at the Local --- it looks great and since we have lots of control over its position in the office there have not been any reflection issues.

-  Jeff Wexler

[Noah Timan]

I bought a Macbook last year.  At the time, research told me that aside of the physical differences (case/screen/etc) the only real difference between the regular Macbook and the Macbook Pro was a better graphics interface chip on the Macbook Pro.  If I did my research properly and common sense holds true, there shouldn't really be a difference as regards audio work.

That said, I have encountered a few processer-overload aborts on Boom Recorder with the Macbook.  However, as it's a backup recorder laying down a second copy of tracks that probably never will get used, I haven't been real careful and have run plenty of other apps in the background while Boom Recorder is doing its thing (usually just Safari and Entourage, but sometimes others).  But if it was my primary recorder, it'd be a concern.  No way to know whether a MacBook Pro would do better under the same circumstance.

I was really set to put a Mac Mini on the cart -- I even bought a monitor for it (the Xenarc, which I've still never used) and commissioned  a monitor bracket for it when I had my most recent cart built a year and a half ago (which took some hassle and negotiating -- sorry, David). 

But when I heard a rumor that Apple was coming out with a "sub notebook" next year to challenge all the cute PC mini-laptops out there, I decided to hold the phone.  I was also worried that the Mac Mini would be discontinued when they took an exceptionally long time to update it.  Since they quietly released a newer version with the Core 2 Duo chipset recently, maybe that fear was in vain, but more experience has not led me to buy the mini. 

The reasons being are that setting up the Mini for constant DC power is a hassle that will require more days of work and soldering and diagrams, a bunch more clunk to the cart, and a big power suck on my cart battery.  It would be nice to have a permanently fixed computer to the cart to eliminate the downside Jeff notes of having to port my laptop back and forth every day from work, but all of that work, extra hassle, and compromise -- and to have the computer running on a smaller, harder-to-read screen -- just doesn't seem worth it.  (I also would need to find somewhere to put a second keyboard, since I can't fathom a way to have both my main recorder [an 824] and the Mac to run off one keyboard  - I could put it on my current laptop tray but I'd have to look west at the small monitor while typing east).

So I'm waiting for the supposed sub-laptop with an internal battery that I could probably find a place for, and that would eliminate all the DC issues.  It sounds like maybe this might be the solution for you too, if the rumor has any worth to it.

nvt

I'm still using a G4 1.5gb Powerbook as my MC/BR computer, but would like to move up to a newer Mac for this and other location audio tasks.  What does having a MacBook Pro buy me re: Metacorder (and BR and Audacity etc) vs. a regular MacBook?  Where does the Mini fit into this scheme?  When I started w/ MC everyone seemed to be using laptops, is that still true or has the Mini become more of a fave for cart-based recording?

Also--what's the upgrade I'd need to be able to go from my old G4 version of MC to the MacIntel version?  I'm still using v. 1.2 something from last year--seems fine and stable on the G4, but I understand there was a rewrite for MacIntel?  If I upgrade (my dongle, I guess) to the new version will I still be able to run the old verion of MC on the G4 if I need to?

thanks

Philip Perkins

[takev]

Hello Noah, A MacBook should be plenty fast for Boom Recorder to not abort with a normal number (24) of channels. I recently found that the most common reason for these aborts are hardware problems (if the audio interface can not send the data in time, it also misses this IO deadline, causing Boom Recorder to abort), most of these hardware problems is simply a bad firewire cable or firewire HUB (or USB/USB HUB). I guess the firewire cable works well, but sometimes noise is introduced or something like that, which mangles an audio packet.

You do get something interesting with a MacBook Pro, it is this slot on the left side. I think it would be possible to buy an external PCIe extender and put an audio card like a 64 channel MADI interface from RME. It would make the notebook extendable like a desktop computer. I have a SATA interface on this port to get 60MByte/second to an harddisk, for video recording.

Cheers,

    Take

[Noiz2]

Philip,

You can't install FCS2 on the MacBook, only the MacBook Pro.  It's because of the video card, or actually because the Mac Book doesn't have a video card.  The video "card" on the Mac Book is built into the motherboard and uses system memory instead of dedicated video memory.  FCS checks for min system configuration and won't install on the Mac Book.  There may be a workaround but it's performance would probably be very bad since FCS is a heavy video user.

[Noah Timan]

Hi Take,

I suppose it's entirely possible that it's something to do with the firewire connection with the MacBook -- since the error message on BR reads "the processor was overloaded during recording" I always assumed it was because the MacBook was too busy. 

I also forgot to note that left card slot that is only on the MacBook Pro and not on the MacBook -- come to think of it I have seen a few people make use of that slot, if only for nifty wireless modems that can plug right in and don't need a USB cable and a separate device (as you would with a MacBook).  But I never investigated it for audio purposes -- your idea sounds interesting!

Hello Noah, A MacBook should be plenty fast for Boom Recorder to not abort with a normal number (24) of channels. I recently found that the most common reason for these aborts are hardware problems (if the audio interface can not send the data in time, it also misses this IO deadline, causing Boom Recorder to abort), most of these hardware problems is simply a bad firewire cable or firewire HUB (or USB/USB HUB). I guess the firewire cable works well, but sometimes noise is introduced or something like that, which mangles an audio packet.

You do get something interesting with a MacBook Pro, it is this slot on the left side. I think it would be possible to buy an external PCIe extender and put an audio card like a 64 channel MADI interface from RME. It would make the notebook extendable like a desktop computer. I have a SATA interface on this port to get 60MByte/second to an harddisk, for video recording.

Cheers,

    Take

[Philip Perkins]

Philip,

You can't install FCS2 on the MacBook, only the MacBook Pro.  It's because of the video card, or actually because the Mac Book doesn't have a video card.  The video "card" on the Mac Book is built into the motherboard and uses system memory instead of dedicated video memory.  FCS checks for min system configuration and won't install on the Mac Book.  There may be a workaround but it's performance would probably be very bad since FCS is a heavy video user.

I checked and you seem to be right, bummer that that is.  That explains why there are a lot of Macbooks for sale used now that FCS2 is out.  Thanks for the heads up.

Philip Perkins

[bcopenhagen]

I built my cart with the Mini to drive Boom Recorder.  I decided awhile ago that I wanted to build with individual components, instead of the all-in-one of a laptop.  If the CPU grinds to a halt, I only have to replace that.  Same with the monitor or keyboard.  If a laptop has a problem with any one of those components (CPU, monitor, or keyboard), you'll be looking for a new laptop  (more $$), or a costly repair that takes away the whole thing for weeks.

The 1.42 GHz Mini has been going strong for me for over a year.  The DC solution was fairly painless.

I recently purchased a MacBook for general purpose use, which I outfitted with Boom Recorder and Protools LE, and it runs like a champ.  I wouldn't hesitate to put it on the cart if I had some calamitous meltdown with the Mini.

The glossy screen is a little difficult at times.  I notice myself tilting it back or forward to get the proper contrast, much more than with my G4 Powerbook.

That certainly is a real bummer about the FCS2 on a MacBook.  I was keen to get that running so I could make some headway into concrete workflows involving Boom Recorder, BWF, FCP, etc.

-Brian

[Noiz2]

I checked and you seem to be right, bummer that that is.  That explains why there are a lot of Macbooks for sale used now that FCS2 is out.  Thanks for the heads up.

Philip Perkins

I was doing testing on FCS so I know it's an issue.  FCP if you could get it to instal would probably work OK.  Motion and Color would be probably unusable, Compressor would probably also be OK, DSP???, STP probably not so good but??  I'm not sure how you would install it though, and I don't know if it does system check on startup.  I sort of doubt it since historically it didn't and you can install (or could) on systems you really shouldn't so I think it's an install only.  So I guess if you were determined you could clone your laptop drive, boot an approved system off the clone, install then clone back to your laptop and cross your fingers.  Or just spent a few hundred more and get the Pro.

A good bit of advice I got from Phil, was to go to the Apple site and get a "remanufactured" unit.  I got a first generation MBP all nice and updated with full warrantee looking and packaged like brand new for about 45% off and it came with a larger HD that listed.  What's available changes constantly so you have to keep looking til what you wants comes up.

[ptalsky]

I've been running BR on my MacBook with just the standard 1GB of memory and haven't had any problems.  On my most recent project I mirrored the output to both the internal drive and an external FW drive, and that was the first time I noticed any lag in the output at the end of a take (certainly not enough of a delay to cause any concern, it just wasn't instantaneous as it is when I'm not mirroring.  But, I am also very careful and only run BR when I'm recording (BR is my primary recorder).

As far as remanufactured, I do recommend it.  Actually, Apple has two programs - refreshed and remanufactured.  Refreshed seem to be 10-20% discounts on open box units that just have the hd wiped and the OS reinstalled - there was nothing physically wrong with the machine.  Remanufactured, with much greater discounts, are machines that were returned for warranty reasons, swapped out, repaired and then resold.  They are essentially new machines - just not "pristine/virgin" machines.  Mine is actually a refreshed machine and I saved about $200 on it.