johnpaul215 Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 Between here and facebook there is a regular flare up about people undercharging for equipment. While there are some places that post their rates, or offer price lists/books on request. It's not trade secrets, and most of this info is scattered throughout the site, but sometimes hard to find because it's a tangent to another thread. Does anyone object to this? Ignoring the camera houses that give gear for one day weeks, it seems to make sense for everyone to be on the same page. Those camera houses hurt sound rental companies as much as they hurt us. When a producer makes a kit request with a crazy low price, it would be an easy way to counter with a price that's fair market numbers. As for labor rates, that up to your union, negotiations, local market, supply/demand, experience and skills, whatever...... The kit you bring to the table should be on the same level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Burstein Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 I use LSC's rental department as the standard. Since they offer a 25% off discount at times, I adjust from gig to gig. http://www.locationsound.com/pdf/LSC_Rental_Brochure.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael McQueen Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 i usually go by Trew's rates as they are the closest to me. but for the "standard kit", mixer, 2 wireless and boom i try and get $200 but most of the time its $150. most everything else is a la carte Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaymz Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 but for the "standard kit", mixer, 2 wireless and boom i try and get $200 but most of the time its $150. most everything else is a la carte Same here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Anderson Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 i usually go by Trew's rates as they are the closest to me. but for the "standard kit", mixer, 2 wireless and boom i try and get $200 but most of the time its $150. most everything else is a la carte ditto as well. /Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Futterman Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 Same for me with standard kit. Everything else I go by Pro Sounds prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Location Sound, Coffey, and The Audio Department's rental rates here in LA are all within a few bucks of each other, as is Pro Sound in NYC and Tai in Orlando: Location Sound Corp. Rental Coffey/Trew Rental Audio Dept. Rental Pro Sound/NY Rental Tai Audio/Orlando Rental [i don't have a link to Gotham's or I'd post it.] This can be a good starting point, but a package would most likely provide some discounts, and a 3-day rental charge for a week is pretty common. I will generally throw in stuff for free if it's not a big deal; I just gave a show 6 walkies for two days, but these were 10-year-old VHF walkies that are pretty outdated. But they did what we needed, the producer was grateful, and I got a reasonable day rate for myself, boom op, and gear. I have often used as an argument to cheapo producers, "you can't even rent the gear alone for the rate you're offering!" A lot of these guys seem blind to that fact. I've posted elsewhere about how there's now a shark-feeding frenzy among Red owners, where there are Epic owners ($40K camera) slashing prices to try to compete against the Scarlet owners ($12K camera). Much, much grumbling about camera rental packages being devalued. And I know guys with 5-ton grip trucks who had to sell everything because low prices drove them into the ground. Bottom feeders are at all aspects of the business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blas Kisic Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 i usually go by Trew's rates as they are the closest to me. but for the "standard kit", mixer, 2 wireless and boom i try and get $200 but most of the time its $150. Same here. BTW, I called Trew/Coffey the other day to rent some gear for a feature, and it seems they offer two-day weeks. Is this normal? Is it just for soundies? I'm curious, because I normally quote four- and three-day weeks... TIA, BK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Flaitz Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Sometimes you get a good break from rental houses. I've gotten a 3 week rental for 2 week price before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Rental houses will definitely make deals for regular customers. I was thrilled to get a 1-day sound rental for a Friday afternoon-Monday AM rental a few weeks ago. I can recall a time about 10 years ago when we rented a broadcast camera for a little project, and that was definitely a 2-day charge (and a ton of extra cash for a deposit and insurance). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Burstein Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Rental houses will definitely make deals for regular customers. I was thrilled to get a 1-day sound rental for a Friday afternoon-Monday AM rental a few weeks ago. Is this not standard practice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemmerlinj Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 My rates are based off of PSS rates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason porter Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 I like getting a break from rental houses (4 day week, etc) but I hate it when they give the same deal to production companies. I charged a prodco a half day to pickup/drop-off rental gear (they wouldn't pay full rate for my gear) They couldn't understand why I would do such a thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheisticmystic Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Same here. BTW, I called Trew/Coffey the other day to rent some gear for a feature, and it seems they offer two-day weeks. Is this normal? Is it just for soundies? I'm curious, because I normally quote four- and three-day weeks... LSC has given me a 25% discount consistently since I was a student... they never stopped. That means I get my week's rental at a three day charge. When a producer recently negotiated a three day week out of me for my kit fee (for throwing me two week's work), LSC told me "We'll give you a two day week so you can still make a little money". They have been consistently wonderful with me, and I only ask for the specials when I'm getting stuck from the other (producing) side. Best, Steven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Visser Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 My guideline is 2% of the value of gear. Mixer, 2 wires and a boom, is that an FP33, couple of G2, and a Rode NTG-2? ($2000 = $40/day) or are we looking at a 302, Lectro/Zaxcom, and CMIT ($10000 = $200/day)? If the rental fees for the duration of the entire project equals 50% of the purchase value, I'll start deducting days from the week (a month or more of work) or if it is a good regular client for a couple of weeks. In my mind, the total rental fee should not exceed or equal the value of the kit which means that for longer term TV projects, the daily rate could end up being less than 1%. I think guidelines like these leave no room for ambiguity and can easily be fairly calculated across different types of projects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Martin Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 I would find some sort of comprehensive list like that helpful. Right now I am in the middle of negotiating the kit fee on a low budget feature starting in the beginning of September (yes quickly approaching) Of course they want the works but don't want to pay for it. Somewhere down the line the LP once got a ridiculous low rate on a "full feature package" and expected that from me. I tried to educate them the real world rental costs but I feel like it is falling on deaf ears. I sent them a list of links to the usual suspects (most of the ones that Marc posted) but I highly doubt they will put the time in to click through and research that I am not lying. Some sort of comprehensive list showing average or actual rental prices from dealers would be really helpful to have in one document. I might feel motivated enough to do this today.... if so I'll post it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 " Somewhere down the line the LP once got a ridiculous low rate on a "full feature package" " of course it is all negotiable ... and it is competitive... it ends up being up to you to decide if you are willing to include your competitive (item for item) package at that rate (and everything else is ala carte) or use that kit (and nothing else!)...or even not take the gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chriskellett Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Matt, also keep in mind that the dealers did not pay what you paid for your gear, they paid 30-45% less and as such they can be a bit more flexible with rental "terms". It always made me scratch my head when folks set their rental gear rate below that of the dealers, that is just plain bad business practice. Tom's basic 50-1 payoff rate is a good one although I tend to try and go a little higher @ 45-1, YMMV. I would make sure that you clear up all practices of payment and terms for L&D / overages / insurance coverage BEFORE setting foot on that set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Reineke Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Many UPM's want the bottom-line labor/gear per/day price. I base my equip/price on that... discounts for multi--day or longer shoots. No formula fits all clients though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Martin Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 I also try to stick to 2% as a basic guideline. With three day weeks and the inevitable "deal" I usually have to give on an item or two sometimes it's closer to 1%. However, am I reading the catalogs wrong or do most of those links above have Lectro 411/um400/cos11 packages ranging from $80-$110/day. $100 is about 3% of the purchase price. I'd like to not go below what the rental houses are offering, but that seems a like a lot. Is everyone else out there asking for (and getting) 3% for wireless on a typical one or two day job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 Is this not standard practice? It depends! Is everyone else out there asking for (and getting) 3% for wireless on a typical one or two day job? Some items are in a special category. I noticed, for example, that a Denecke SB-T or an Ambient Lockit typically goes for $40 a day. High-demand items cost more, because they can get more for them -- I have no problem with that. Note that a wireless package really includes receiver, transmitter, lav mike, and batteries. A minimal set up could easily cost $3000, and this doesn't include backups. $75/day for a full wireless system is not out of line. I agree 100% with what Rick says above, that the producers I deal with expect a full package price for me and gear, and no formula fits all clients. Go high, and be willing to negotiate down, to a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 As has been mentioned and for some of the reasons... i am not a rental house... I have my prices and stick to them tooth and nail, or I go to have some fun... They are my prices based on what i believe things should cost... In my world, Commercial industry standards....I respect others like Crew, Jeff and many others for doing the same thing... for YEARS... I really don't understand... If I was a Producer, I would MUCH rather pay a known rate, for a qualified person... or a known rate for someone who at least fakes it well, right into being "The person" at that normal rate... The opposite of hiring a green person who may make you look bad, based solely on low pay rate for them and their gear is a dangerous game I for one would never play if I were them... I think that's the trick... getting to that point like you deserve it, and with your best poker face hanging in there untill you bow out... As has been mentioned by others.., I try to work less for more, hence, less days, more days off, for the same amount of money... It both works now, and has worked for me for years.... Until my ability to verbally handle my quoting of rates utterly fails me, I will continue on this path...A few more years.... I think if your in a really small market, Like N. Dakota...you have MORE power than you think... If they don't like your FAIR prices, they may have to bring someone else in at great expense... how are they in the power seat there?... If there are let's say 4 people doing sound there, have a sit down at Denny's over some eggs.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blas Kisic Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 I really don't understand... If I was a Producer, I would MUCH rather pay a known rate, for a qualified person... or a known rate for someone who at least fakes it well, right into being "The person" at that normal rate... The opposite of hiring a green person who may make you look bad, based solely on low pay rate for them and their gear is a dangerous game I for one would never play if I were them... My sentiments exactly. When I'm in the mood, I write to the "producer" something to this effect: "why are you willing to risk that something breaks down, or the mixer gets offered real money elsewhere, or any other incident which would force you to scramble to cover the sound department?" Indeed, why? Maybe we really shouldn't worry about these "producers" - after all, it's very likely that they won't amount to much, seeing as they don't respect the process, the end result or the crew! BK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Mayer Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 I also try to stick to 2% as a basic guideline. With three day weeks and the inevitable "deal" I usually have to give on an item or two sometimes it's closer to 1%. However, am I reading the catalogs wrong or do most of those links above have Lectro 411/um400/cos11 packages ranging from $80-$110/day. $100 is about 3% of the purchase price. I'd like to not go below what the rental houses are offering, but that seems a like a lot. Is everyone else out there asking for (and getting) 3% for wireless on a typical one or two day job? Absolutely. .02 of $3400 (current price of a 411/UM/COS11) is $68. Any wireless over and above what I provide in the kit is $75 a day. Given the price increases for the equipment the last few years, I should probably raise the rate. Don't forget that included in that price is a cost for wear and tear and repair. I would expect that a lav mic's useful life is less than my mixer, recorder or anything else that is completely under my control most of the time. The same for the transmitter for that matter. It might have a longer life than a lav, but included in the rental price is the expectation that at some point, I will have to send it in for repair, even with normal use. I will generally try to match Trew Nashville's rental rates, as they are closest to me geographically. Although it looks like I need to raise my PD-4 rental rate, wish I could get someone to rent it from me at $120/day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewFreedAudio Posted August 28, 2012 Report Share Posted August 28, 2012 I was asked to do a gig at Sturgis over the summer and didn't get it because the production company found a "local" who would work for a cheaper rate and not charge hotel or travel expenses. Really? A local sound mixer with 6 wireless, boom, IFB, camera hops, and a multitrack in western South Dakota? Perhaps I'm under estimating the market in Rapid City, SD but I find it hard to believe a qualified sound mixer with the proper gear list actually lives in that area. Even if you're in a smaller market you should be charging larger market rates. As the previous posters mentioned, you are in more control than you think. Production Sound Mixing for Television, Films, and Commercials. www.matthewfreed.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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