Joshua Anderson Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 I sympathize with the mixer, because he's just trying to deal with the stress and challenges of getting good sound on the set. But timecode is granular, and a 1-2 frame offset throughout the day is not unusual. I bet just checking every single take and then sliding them 1 frame (or 0 frames) would literally take 10 seconds per take. But explaining this to inexperienced, demanding people is fraught with political problems. Didn't someone say that the previous mixer on this show had similar TC variations but Post was fine? This situation sounds more political than technical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOPKIN Posted September 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Sorry Mike but no one has told me how to fix this issue. I used the same method as John Blankership has described, which everyone agrees is the best method. But it didnt work. I took Glenns advice using no ext tc it didnt work. I tried a denecke box straight to deva, didnt work. So please dont tell me I havent listened to anyone. Ive even tried another Deva it did not work. So Mike you got any ideas ? Better make it quick because of tomorrow im switching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Dear Mr. Hopkin: If you have tried all these other configurations and post is still having a problem, I have to say that even common sense logic seems to indicate that something is being done when the post people get a hold of your tracks that is causing the problem. If the Deva were a new piece of gear (hardly) or you were using other timecode devices that have yet to prove themselves (again, hardly, with Denecke, Ambient, etc. having been in the game a very long time), I would continue to suspect something on your end. But this is not the case. You keep asking us to explain why your are having the problem --- I would like you to explain to us how you can be the only person who is having this great difficulty when there is such a long, long history from the unquestionable majority of Deva users here, success recording and syncing thousands of hours of dailies? I just don't get it. One last simple question: when comparing all these various setups by looking at various timecode DISPLAYED on the various devices, the problem you are experiencing isn't just a display latency issue is it? Many people have been spooked by looking at the TC display on the camera, for example, and the display on a slate, or the display of TC on playback on a video monitor, etc. These sorts of tests will rarely line up as each devices has its own characteristics for displaying the timecode. Rather than buying a new recorder, have you tried doing one day with some other recorder? If it is post that is doing something odd that is causing the problem, I would venture to say the problem would persist even while using a different recorder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOPKIN Posted September 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Mr Wexler the problem I have is that nothing in the workflow has changed except for the introduction of the Deva and because im the second recordist on the job im being leant on to correct it. Im thankful to you for agreeing in my methods but none of them has resolved the issue. I know of another person on the forum who has had exactly the same problem at 23.98 at 48k with the deva. One which could not be resolved by Glenn Sanders himself who undoubtedley has experience in TC. So I have nowhere else to go with the issue but to adhere to posts request as I dont wanna be the recordist who messed up the workflow which production had to pay money for an extra edit assist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Okay, I get it. Use the other recorder, get on with the job, mystery persists, very weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikefilosa Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 So Mike you got any ideas ? Better make it quick because of tomorrow im switching. including Devas - yet the problem persists - wow, could it possibly be the POST side of things... Or is it a ridiculous zero tolerance for the occasional, invisible to the normal eye, slip of a frame or two that seems to make this stupid thread title linger on.... In the meantime, Go ahead and spend the $8K - then apply one, or more of the above processes, and then find out that you've wasted your money. Be certain to let us know when that happens. Though I have little faith in the troubleshooting process here, as there seems to be no scientific applied approach / "control" in the troubleshooting... I really don't care - but don't go slamming Zaxcom Deva recorders and their TC, IN A HEADLINE, because you or someone in the chain is the problem ..... MF and OUT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Ive placed an offset of -60ms into the Deva which syncs perfectly or is one frame out. Unforunately the edit are still not pleased with this so im going to have to purchase a 788t ssd. Big blow for me as I dislike having to switch machines as im accustom to the deva but TC has let me down Wouldn't an SB3 be a lot cheaper way to go--ext clock your deva like these other guys? I'm sympathetic to your situation, which seems frought enough that I'd guess there was more to it--personalties, rivalries and interpersonal competition etc which may have nothing to do with you (I've been fired from movies because of conflicts happening several "floors" above me--I was just a pawn etc). I hope this job is paying you well and is worth the buying of a whole new recording system for--I hope you did a test with these guys with a 788 first, --sorry if I missed that. Reconnectorizing your rig in the middle of a show sounds horrible to me, but you gotta do what you gotta do. When things calm down for you I'd love to hear some details of their syncing methodology--perhaps they are doing something kind of unique that the other Deva users haven't run into yet? phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 We have run tests at Zaxcom last week and have found our time code stamp to be within 1% of one frame. Don't know what could be wrong here but it is not the Deva. I would rent a 788T for a week before I commit 8 thousand dollars to a solution that will yield most likely the same results. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Wouldn't an SB3 be a lot cheaper way to go--ext clock your deva like these other guys? phil p Evidently Hopkin has already tried this sort of setup using sync boxes (quite commonly described by several others here who have used their Devas and didn't get fired) but he says that did not work --- the Deva is still causing problems that threaten his employment on that job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 One thing I've not seen (maybe just missed it) is a specific, step by step trouble-shooting methodology, which, of course, would narrow down the problem. The devil is in the details. I also strongly suggest using a time code slate which would help greatly in this trouble-shooting procedure. Is trouble-shooting out of fashion now? Is the new "proper procedure" yelling, threatening to fire people, and pointing fingers at each other -- or the equipment without verification? Equipment can, and does, go bad. Even with the best of gear if one little micro-component decides to take an unscheduled vacation it can wreck havoc. Good trouble-shooting, of course, will usually reveal which piece of gear deserves a side-trip to service, if that's, indeed, where the problem lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 Is trouble-shooting out of fashion now? Is the new "proper procedure" yelling, threatening to fire people, and pointing fingers at each other -- or the equipment without verification? Equipment can, and does, go bad. Even with the best of gear if one little micro-component decides to take an unscheduled vacation it can wreck havoc. Good trouble-shooting, of course, will usually reveal which piece of gear deserves a side-trip to service, if that's, indeed, where the problem lies. I am sure the troubleshooting procedures have been lacking something, we just don't know what it is. As for your suggestion that "Equipment can, and does, go bad", this is certainly true, but Hopkin has already stated that as part of his troubleshooting he used another Deva and had the same problem. The conclusion then, with this troubleshooting, was not that the Deva has gone bad but that the Deva IS bad, ANY Deva is bad and the only course of action is to get rid of the Deva. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 I am sure the troubleshooting procedures have been lacking something, we just don't know what it is. As for your suggestion that "Equipment can, and does, go bad", this is certainly true, but Hopkin has already stated that as part of his troubleshooting he used another Deva and had the same problem. The conclusion then, with this troubleshooting, was not that the Deva has gone bad but that the Deva IS bad, ANY Deva is bad and the only course of action is to get rid of the Deva. My comment, "Equipment can, and does, go bad," was general, not pointed at the Deva. For all we know, something in the Lockit could have fallen prey to gremlins. My point was that we don't know where the culprit lies (if indeed, there even is one) without properly trouble shooting the situation. One overly laborious trouble shooting technique is to replace each piece of gear until the problem goes away. This method would point toward the Deva as NOT being the source of disruption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Anderson Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 I also strongly suggest using a time code slate which would help greatly in this trouble-shooting procedure. Having a TC slate would give you the power to prove that things are in sync on your side. If 2 out of 3 machines (recorder, slate, camera) are in sync then the problem is in the 3rd or how the media from the 3rd is being handled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted September 10, 2012 Report Share Posted September 10, 2012 " Unforunately the edit are still not pleased with this " hmmm... sounds like "they" are inexperienced! and why not TC slates ?? good luck with the change of machine. As for the $$$, you are switching to another popular and reliable recorder; buying or renting ? If you are renting, I sympathize with you for incurring an additional expense, but you seem to feel it is necessary. If you purchase, it is a good investment in another fine piece of gear, and obviously the gig pays enough to justify the $$$... of course, if it still doesn't please them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 Having a TC slate would give you the power to prove that things are in sync on your side. If 2 out of 3 machines (recorder, slate, camera) are in sync then the problem is in the 3rd or how the media from the 3rd is being handled. That is really the key, to me. In all of my past post dailies sessions in LA, we never relied solely on timecode to sync material -- we always relied on the slate numbers and the clap. This to me may be one of the key issues here. The second is that we occasionally saw 1-frame slop on all timecode recorders, going back to Nagras. But this is an issue of a slate clock crystal being a little different from the one in the recorder, and that being a little different from the ones today in cameras. None of them are 100% perfect. They are very close, but we knew going in that there would occasionally be 1- or 2-frame discrepancies we'd have to fix. Plus, there are issues where the slate number is changing from one frame number to the next (due to shutter timing issues), and we weren't sure whether to go a frame ahead or a frame back. My joke was, whichever I picked usually turned out to be wrong, even when I went against my instincts! But as long as the sync was correct at the end of the day, it didn't matter how we got there. On well-maintained slates and recorders, there was zero drift and no problems. I recall an indie project I worked on -- a very downbeat super 16mm horror film -- and the poor sound man had a beat-up TS2 that drifted by at least 5-6 frames by the end of the day. I had recently bought a used TS3 and had Charlie Parra tune it up at the factory, so -- just to make my dailies sessions go easier -- I loaned it to the sound mixer for the duration of the shoot at no charge. Problems completely, totally went away. I got to go home an hour earlier because suddenly, I wasn't struggling with clap sync. Normally, one doesn't like to get the clap, but we love to get the clap at the head of every take in post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 That is really the key, to me. In all of my past post dailies sessions in LA, we never relied solely on timecode to sync material -- we always relied on the slate numbers and the clap. This to me may be one of the key issues here. The second is that we occasionally saw 1-frame slop on all timecode recorders, going back to Nagras. But this is an issue of a slate clock crystal being a little different from the one in the recorder, and that being a little different from the ones today in cameras. None of them are 100% perfect. They are very close, but we knew going in that there would occasionally be 1- or 2-frame discrepancies we'd have to fix. Plus, there are issues where the slate number is changing from one frame number to the next (due to shutter timing issues), and we weren't sure whether to go a frame ahead or a frame back. My joke was, whichever I picked usually turned out to be wrong, even when I went against my instincts! But as long as the sync was correct at the end of the day, it didn't matter how we got there. On well-maintained slates and recorders, there was zero drift and no problems. I recall an indie project I worked on -- a very downbeat super 16mm horror film -- and the poor sound man had a beat-up TS2 that drifted by at least 5-6 frames by the end of the day. I had recently bought a used TS3 and had Charlie Parra tune it up at the factory, so -- just to make my dailies sessions go easier -- I loaned it to the sound mixer for the duration of the shoot at no charge. Problems completely, totally went away. I got to go home an hour earlier because suddenly, I wasn't struggling with clap sync. Normally, one doesn't like to get the clap, but we love to get the clap at the head of every take in post. The irony here is, if he'd sent his TS2 to Charlie, he would have had it back promptly, it would have only cost him maybe $50 bucks or so, and would likely have been rock solid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Spaeth Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 In response to Marc's last post, I'd like to know (possibly from post folks), how often post (i.e. the editor assistant) actually exclusively relies on TC, without ever moving a take by a single frame by hand. What I usually hear from post - only when I ask them! - is that it happens here and there that a take will be off one or two frames but they just pull it right by hand. I've never worked with any post department that expected the TC to be 100% accurate all of the time. Then again, I don't have decades of experience... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 It's not just the slate clock--almost all TC readers have a frame of latency--ie read one frame late. It used to be that only Gray Labs readers could deal with this--the new generation of Denecke slates also solves this issue. But (to everyone's amazement here in 2012) there IS still slop in the whole system, so a hard mark and some experienced eyes on the sync are still important. I have a hunch that the OP's posties are trying to phone in the syncing and are unhappy that that kind of thing is not a perfect system.... phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted September 11, 2012 Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 " Please continue to keep us informed, " yes, please! some folks here would love to hear that the change solved the problem... some folks here would love to hear that the change did not solve the problem, and some folks here would love to hear what happened! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 The irony here is, if he'd sent his TS2 to Charlie, he would have had it back promptly, it would have only cost him maybe $50 bucks or so, and would likely have been rock solid. No time! They were in the middle of a shoot, and he had no back up. I wasn't using it, so I figured I'd be a nice guy. As I said, I got to go home an hour early every day -- and the production was appreciative. I did tell him: get your slate fine-tuned once the show has ended! In response to Marc's last post, I'd like to know (possibly from post folks), how often post (i.e. the editor assistant) actually exclusively relies on TC, without ever moving a take by a single frame by hand. What I usually hear from post - only when I ask them! - is that it happens here and there that a take will be off one or two frames but they just pull it right by hand. I've never worked with any post department that expected the TC to be 100% accurate all of the time. Then again, I don't have decades of experience... I do have decades of experience, and I expect the timecode to occasionally be off 1 or 2 frames either way (which is a total of 5 possible frames: up to 2 early, 2 late, or dead-on perfect). On well-oiled shows, I've seen it be 100% perfect all day long. I think we're losing an important showbiz tradition, that the main job of the assistant editor is to get all the files into the computer, check the sync on everything, and then organize the bins for the editor. They seem to assume job #2 is always automatic. My opinion is that they're wrong (and lazy). BTW, I had no idea Mr. Van Dyke did the sound on Grown Ups, and I want to reiterate that any confusion on that show was the post department's problem, not his. And I commiserate with him -- that show had longer takes than any feature film I've ever seen in my life. It must've been a nightmare for the poor boom op. (But it was a huge hit and had a big audience.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 One thing that I would ask, going back to the original post is, Was the original mixer switching the Alexa time code back to internal sync after jamming? Every time I've worked with the Alexa, and not had a permanent time code source connected, I have always left the Alexa set to external sync. Show I just wrapped, with an assistant editor who was unhappy at the prospect of using the sticks to sync only complained once (that I am aware of - I was the assistant) about sync issues, and that was a 12 second oddity. Sorry if that had already been suggested, but I didn't spot it on a quick scan through the topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Faber Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 Im using an Ambient clockit controller to tune all cameras to the deva's oscillating crystal. HOPKIN: Do you mean you’re using the Ambient ACC501 Controller to tune the internal clocks on the Alexas? (Not a sync box.) Also, do you mean “tune” or “jam”? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 No time! They were in the middle of a shoot, and he had no back up. I wasn't using it, so I figured I'd be a nice guy. As I said, I got to go home an hour early every day -- and the production was appreciative. I did tell him: get your slate fine-tuned once the show has ended! I figured that was the case but thought I'd mention for those looking in, how quick, inexpensive, and good Denecke is. A "perfect storm" in the positive sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOPKIN Posted September 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 First day on sound devices. Cant say im loving It. I did slam the devas timecode but never the important side of it i.e recording sound please dont get the 2 confused. Will let u know how tc went tomorrow. Oh i was tuning the alexas crystals to the acc501 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted September 12, 2012 Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 First day on sound devices. Cant say im loving It. I did slam the devas timecode but never the important side of it i.e recording sound please dont get the 2 confused. Will let u know how tc went tomorrow. Oh i was tuning the alexas crystals to the acc501 Whoa! Earlier, you mentioned that your time code setup/procedure was the same as mine. In your scenario, you're re-tuning the camera's crystal?! I've never done that. I either use one of my sync boxes on the camera for continuous jam, or jam the camera and let its own crystal keep sync. I've NEVER re-tuned the camera! There could easily be gotchas in this scenario and camera repair is not under my care and feeding when I'm wearing a sound hat. With unstable cameras (any Red, of course) I use a sync box. With the Alexas, I've done it both ways. If I suspected that the camera's TC generator was out of spec I wouldn't even consider re-tuning it. Certainly not on set without the proper time available to test the results. I'd just slap a sync box on board and use continuous jam. Maybe I'm just naive in this area having never used an ACC501. What's the procedure for re-tuning an Alexa's crystal? Did the person before you who had such good time code success also re-tune the Alexas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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